Summary: This discussion focuses on the differences between small and large colleges, particularly in the context of Bible colleges and Christian higher education. Gregg Garner, President of the Institute for GOD, along with Laurie Kagay, the Director of Enrollment and Marketing, and Jeff Sherrod, the Academic Dean, explore how school size impacts factors such as facilities, faculty, student-faculty relationships, and the overall college experience. They note that larger schools can leverage economies of scale to invest in amenities, but smaller schools often foster more personalized mentorship and community. Focusing on how prospective students should carefully consider the values and priorities of each institution, rather than just on size. The goal is to find the right "fit" based on one's personal needs and goals, not to simply assume bigger or smaller is automatically better. Overall this is a great discussion on whether or not a small school is right for you!

S2E25: What Can a Small School Do that a Large School Can't?

[00:00:10.80] - Jeff Sherrod

Hey, everyone, and welcome back to College Conversations. My name is Jeff Sherrod. I am joined by mister Gregg Garner, president of the Institute for GOD, and miss Laurie Kagay Hi, everyone. Director of enrollment and marketing at the institute. And today, what I wanted to talk about was school size.

[00:00:26.39] - Gregg Garner

School size.

[00:00:27.00] - Jeff Sherrod

That's what I'm talking about, school size. So one of the things that, you know, we have students that come to the institute and they're like, man, this is you know, we're we're a smaller school. They see that and they're like, I love this. Like, you know, I'm gonna be able to meet every single person here. I'm gonna have relationships with, professors. You know, that's one group of people. Then we have other prospective students like me. And I was really had it in my head, a big school. You know? I'm like so I wanna just talk about, like, what can a big what can a small school do that a big school can't? If we wanna do the opposite, we could we could talk about that too, but more interested in the former.

[00:01:00.00] - Gregg Garner

I think I think you know me well enough to know. I need terms defined. What do we mean by small school?

[00:01:05.09] - Jeff Sherrod

Okay.

[00:01:05.59] - Gregg Garner

And what do we mean by big school? I I feel like I know what it could mean, but I'd need a definition.

[00:01:12.70] - Jeff Sherrod

So I think that there's kind of, like, informal and formal definitions of this.

[00:01:17.59] - Gregg Garner

Okay.

[00:01:18.00] - Jeff Sherrod

So, like, typically, like, if you were looking at what's called IPEDS and I actually don't even know what IPEDS stands for. IPEDS is like this government way of tracking all school data across the whole country. So the way they define it as small school is anything under five thousand. So and then

[00:01:33.50] - Gregg Garner

and then That's definitely not what our students are

[00:01:35.70] - Jeff Sherrod

are thinking when they say something. Formal

[00:01:38.50] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. Because you talk about places like like MTSU with, like, fifty or sixty thousand Right. Or even a Christian one like Grand Canyon University with a hundred thousand.

[00:01:47.20] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Large schools. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, those are

[00:01:50.29] - Laurie Kagay

you are yeah. Mega. Mega school.

[00:01:51.90] - Jeff Sherrod

Mega school. I think that within, like, bible colleges. You know? And that's where we're already kind of talking about. We're not talk there's no colleges that would meet in the bible school network, that would meet the definition of a large.

[00:02:04.50] - Gregg Garner

Well, I I Southeastern. I think they're at ten thousand.

[00:02:08.00] - Laurie Kagay

I think they're at ten

[00:02:08.69] - Jeff Sherrod

ten thousand. Twelve thousand. Yeah. They are certain. So I think that, like, for iPads, that'd be like a medium sized school. But, yeah. But within, like, those kind of, you know, really big numbers, most of the schools, at least with the within our

[00:02:23.69] - Gregg Garner

So this is the formal definition of iPads, but what is the informal definition?

[00:02:27.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Well, that's what I wanted to get after. I don't know if there is an informal. I think that when I've talked I

[00:02:31.19] - Gregg Garner

just feel like there's so much criteria. It's like, are you talking about, like, undergraduate that that are on campus? Are you talking about including the online group of students that are part of the school? Or what about the nontraditionals who take classes with some kind of frequency and find themselves in those classroom environments? Like, I know for us, that could make us range from fifty to five hundred.

[00:02:54.69] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:02:55.09] - Gregg Garner

Just depending on what we aggregate in that formula.

[00:02:58.19] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. I think that when I'm thinking about it, and and I'm just going off what I'm thinking about.

[00:03:01.80] - Gregg Garner

Oh, okay.

[00:03:02.50] - Jeff Sherrod

The the You

[00:03:03.30] - Laurie Kagay

are the host.

[00:03:04.69] - Jeff Sherrod

The the student who feels like they're gonna interact with someone face to face when they're on campus. So people that are also maybe it's traditional, maybe nontraditional, but people that are on campus.

[00:03:14.00] - Gregg Garner

Does that are by people, do you mean students on campus? Students. Okay. Students on campus.

[00:03:19.40] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. So I think that, you know, like, within our network, you know, under a hundred students

[00:03:24.59] - Gregg Garner

is

[00:03:24.69] - Jeff Sherrod

probably, like, small. Yeah. And then, you know, above that, maybe to, like, five hundred would be medium. Mhmm. And then, like, the bigger schools in our network are, like, over five hundred.

[00:03:33.90] - Gregg Garner

I feel like maybe that should drop to, like, three hundred to 03:50. Just looking at last year's report in the ABHE

[00:03:40.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Right. Mhmm.

[00:03:41.59] - Gregg Garner

I I would say that, like, between a hundred and 03:50.

[00:03:45.09] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah. Because I think in their report, we were kind of mid range, right, as far as size?

[00:03:49.59] - Gregg Garner

I think we got I I know two years ago, we were in seventy out of, like, one seventy who got the full accreditation. So we're definitely more towards the top. But, I think we moved up. Sean was keeping tabs on

[00:04:03.30] - Laurie Kagay

all of that. I

[00:04:03.80] - Gregg Garner

I don't know where we're at on it, but, yeah, I I would say probably more than 03:50

[00:04:09.40] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:04:09.69] - Gregg Garner

Here in one of the larger schools.

[00:04:11.40] - Jeff Sherrod

And I think that for prospective students, you know, they're not only comparing like, when they're thinking about, like, a Bible school like ours, they're not just comparing us against other Bible schools. Like, sometimes they are thinking, am I gonna go here, or am I gonna go to MTSU? You know? They are like

[00:04:27.00] - Laurie Kagay

Sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes other comparatives I've heard are like, Cedarville, which would be, like, Christian liberal arts. It's not always Bible college.

[00:04:34.60] - Gregg Garner

There or or students?

[00:04:36.19] - Laurie Kagay

Probably ten to fifteen thousand.

[00:04:38.00] - Gregg Garner

Gotcha.

[00:04:38.50] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah. If I have a guess. Somewhere around there. It's one of a bigger, like, private Christian colleges.

[00:04:43.50] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. So let's speak to it. I I I think, I let me let me take the CEO president route on talking about size of school. So one of the advantages of having a larger school is that the volume of people that you have bringing in revenues allows you to leverage other institutions such as foundations, grants, and, who who give grants and also, banking institutions, because they're able to see that you have the future capacity to pay off something that some kind of investment. So you're likely going to have facilities that reflect the amount of students that you're able to have. So So take, for example, if I have a hundred students, and let's say the the cash in from, you know, after institutional and scholarship slash discounts are given and and, the student receives governmental funding and they pay their cash. Let's say it ends up being ten thousand dollars just to stick with a round number. Yeah. Right? You've got a one million dollar cash budget for a school of a hundred people. That means within that year, with that one million dollars you, you have to do things like pay for utilities, whatever current mortgage you have, whatever payroll exists. Like you're, you, you don't a million dollars is a lot of money, but when it comes to facilitating post secondary education, that is a small budget. Yeah. Now you take a school that has one thousand. So just one additional zero, and now you're at ten million on the year with the same kind of framework. Now here's where it gets interesting. Like, you can build a building or get a loan out for a building with maybe the mortgage on it ends up being fifteen thousand dollars a month after you pay for the the down payment on it, which is effectively around two hundred thousand dollars on the year, just for your mortgage. And that with with, that one million dollar budget, that's twenty percent of your budget going to the mortgage. And with that building, you could effectively teach up to a capacity of a hundred students.

[00:07:08.80] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:07:09.30] - Gregg Garner

Or I'm sorry. A thousand students. A thousand students. That's that's that's what I think here. You could, with that building that you build with that mortgage payment, facilitate education for a thousand students. But that same building with only a hundred students, again, you're taking twenty percent of your total budget to accommodate those students in that building. Now someone might say, build a smaller building. Rarely do you have institutions trying to create, mass amounts of space so that, they they are thinking about a future that is, you know, way around the corner. Usually, people are like, we've grown out of this. We need to expand.

[00:07:48.80] - Laurie Kagay

Mhmm.

[00:07:49.10] - Gregg Garner

They are they're seeing the trajectory, and they go to a bank saying, hey. We're growing. We need to build something. It's gonna take a few years, whatever is the case. But it I what I'm trying to show here in this example is that the the difference between one hundred and one thousand, you go from twenty percent of the budget to now going to two percent of the budget Mhmm.

[00:08:08.30] - Jeff Sherrod

When

[00:08:08.39] - Gregg Garner

it's of ten million dollars. So when your mortgage is twenty percent of the budget versus two percent of the budget, you obviously have many more things that you can do that are no longer part of what we would call, like, the essentials list. Right? The payroll for your faculty. Like, in a large school, you can have one professor teaching classes for two hundred, three hundred people

[00:08:29.10] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:08:29.39] - Gregg Garner

At a time. That professor may get, gosh, maybe thirty percent more in terms of income than the professor who's teaching a class for ten people. Yeah. So let's just do the math on that. Right? You pay this professor, the will you we'll stay around. Fifty thousand dollars, and they're gonna teach ten people in a class. You pay another professor. We'll add we'll go ahead and add fifty percent to that. Right? You pay this other one seventy five thousand dollars, and they're teaching to a hundred people. And you've increased twenty five grand in terms of what you're paying them. Right? But now, you let's just do the tuition thing again. Let's say each class costs a thousand dollars. Guys, if you're if you're bad at math or not good at conception stuff, I'm so sorry. But but, maybe your editing team will put all the numbers on the screen, and we'll give them a lot of work. Anyways, they probably won't do that. But if if you're thinking now about classroom of ten, that's ten thousand dollars for that class in terms of revenue. And let's say this is one of four classes that the teacher's teaching over the course of this term. So we'll divide that fifty thousand in half to twenty five thousand. So that's what they're getting paid for this semester. And, they're bringing in ten thousand in revenue per class, and they teach four of them. So that's forty thousand dollars that they're bringing in. That means that there's, like, sixty percent of the income they brought in went to their payroll. Now you take the same professor that's getting paid fifty percent more, seventy five thousand dollars, but they're teaching one hundred students. And that brings in just in one class. Now if you do four classes, that's four hundred thousand dollars. Yeah. Their their payroll was covered in the one class Right. For the entire year. Yeah. Like the seventy five if we cut it in half and turned it into the thirty two point five, thirty two point five and the four hundred thousand, we're looking at payroll being less than seven percent. So you go from, sixty percent to seven percent. Do you do you see what's happening here? So you have more money to work with. And because you hit volume, the capacity of personnel and the capacity of venue is able to attend to, what it is that a smaller school is having to put out more money for

[00:10:51.10] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:10:51.50] - Gregg Garner

To to create the environment. So when you go to a small school and you're like, wow, this small school has several academic buildings. This small school has, sports and fields, and and they have alternative learning environments like gardens and and worksites. Like, then it's a small school. You gotta know that there's been a heavy investment either through donors or or something, or or maybe they've been around for a while. So they've been able to to, leverage time in terms of the creation of assets to make the environment great. But this is why, Laurie, job like yours is so important to schools because you need to get the numbers in because, being a tuition based program requires you to have some kind of volume. Yeah. Like, I remember Laurie and I went to this, enrollment officers, breakout session at the ABHE conference, annual conference. And one of the enrollment officers there was saying, like, her her goal is she has to get a hundred and fifty new students every year like that. And then it needs to climb up a little bit to meet the demand. Mhmm. And how she's pushing for it. And she was really excited because she was already surpassed it. She was already at one seventy. Now compared to our numbers, this has gotta be a large school because of what you determined earlier. Like, that would effectively be, one and a half times just in their freshman class enrollment

[00:12:17.10] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:12:17.29] - Gregg Garner

What you would consider to be the school. But look at the money that comes in from that. Mhmm. So there's more bells and whistles that are be able to be created. And I'm not saying that that money is always stewarded well. I know the undergrad school I went to, there were unnecessary columns that that just were erected along the path on the way to the library, which I became it became known to me that, they cost ten thousand bucks each. And I I counted a couple hundred thousand dollars just in columns. So, I I remember I didn't say it. He said it. Jerry Farwell junior said that, Liberty had more money than he he could spend.

[00:12:55.29] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:12:55.50] - Gregg Garner

So there are institutions. I'm not saying they're they're stewarding things very well, but the smaller schools have to be better about their stewardship.

[00:13:03.29] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:13:03.79] - Gregg Garner

And with a smaller school, you you are going to have people being very intentional about how they use those resources with respect to their space, with respect to personnel, with respect to the goals that they're trying to accomplish. So from like a CEO president perspective on the business level, like, you do have to observe volume as a critical component to, how you develop facility and personnel.

[00:13:30.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Right. And for every school, there's, like, this critical mass. Right? It's like, what would be, like, alright, for us to be able to do all things we need to do and fill out our classrooms and have all of our teachers maximally Yeah. Yeah. There's a number.

[00:13:41.60] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. Because every school has a budget, and that budget is comprised, like all budgets, income and expenses. Right? Usually a personal vision cast, and they're like, this is what it's gonna cost for us to do that. And then one of the jobs of the president is to now figure out how to generate the income to cover all all those expenses. And if they're not able to, they gotta figure out how to cut expenses so that they can balance their budget. So the income streams for a college are if if the college is old enough and sophisticated enough with respect to finances, they may have some instrument like an endowment that is, creating interest that allows them to extract that for their operating budget. They may have some grants from foundations that are typically termed, but nonetheless, providing income towards specific programs or or processes that are happening in the school. And then finally, it's what tuition

[00:14:36.70] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:14:37.00] - Gregg Garner

That, they're able to bring in. So the typical composite of those three categories now gives them their revenue stream. And it's real sad, but it's nonetheless, the consideration schools have to make. Every student represents, a dollar amount. And you have to have, an administrative team that's discerning enough and faithful enough to God to never let people be created in the image of Caesar. Yeah. And I get that from the biblical text. Remember Jesus is like, whose face is on this coin? And also Caesar. I always hear British people.

[00:15:12.00] - Jeff Sherrod

They're a

[00:15:12.29] - Gregg Garner

lot of that time. It's like they're they're like Caesar. And and when asked about his obligation to pay taxes, of which Jesus said, yeah. Pay taxes. He then responds with, then give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and give to God who belongs to God. And we all know the Bible well enough to know that even though the coins in Caesar's image, human beings are in the image of God. And in that case, as administration who have learned the word of God, we can never allow people to just be visible representations of our income streams. Mhmm. Even though there's a temptation for that, especially those who are working in roles like CFO and controller and and financial directors. It's it's they they have their job to do to steward things. So there there there's a lot of prayer, you know, that, a school has to go into with their board to determine, what size they wanna be. Yeah. So I would say then that a larger school school has a lot more pressure to maintain, growth. Yeah. And and because they they probably got engaged under some visionary president in in something that they believed was going to take them to the next level or help them fulfill their the mandate God's given them. And so they've obligated themselves to, probably a note that is gonna have to be paid off by increased enrollment. And at that point, the the fitted people, like, the people who are fit for your culture, for your school, you might compromise a little bit in enrollment as to who that is. I know I was talking to Laurie today, and she she was I I she was talking to me about the, you know, you guys have to go through the process of accepting Yep. And unfortunately, also rejecting certain students. Not everybody who applies to college gets into college, and not everybody who applies to our college gets into college. Right. And Laurie was telling me about some that are not getting into our college. And, it's it's just so interesting to be And I I'm not on the the the side of making decisions who gets in and gets out even though Laurie's team and all that handles that. But that's so crazy that you you have to do that and still be subject to some form of pressure Yeah. That says we gotta get in as many as we can. But it was

[00:17:25.40] - Laurie Kagay

Someone someone told me last night, they're like, but all students, money pays the bills. Right?

[00:17:30.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Like Yeah.

[00:17:30.29] - Gregg Garner

You know,

[00:17:30.50] - Laurie Kagay

know, they were kinda challenging that in me where I'm I was like, well, you know, they're not all fit. Because I'm I'm trying to measure, like, how much is gonna be required of our staff if the student can't keep up academically. How how much drama might it cause in our student housing if, you know, like, a place

[00:17:46.50] - Gregg Garner

to benefit of a smaller school.

[00:17:48.40] - Laurie Kagay

Mhmm.

[00:17:49.00] - Gregg Garner

In a smaller school, it seems to me that there is, much more of an effort to determine who would fit Yeah. In in what it is that you're trying to do.

[00:18:01.90] - Laurie Kagay

Because how could you determine that with tens of thousands of students? Like, right? Like, it's very, I would think, minimum standard. It has to be

[00:18:09.59] - Gregg Garner

a little more personal. Otherwise, they're gonna miss out on their margins.

[00:18:12.90] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm. Right.

[00:18:13.40] - Gregg Garner

Because you're you're gonna have to hire if you're gonna go through a class of a thousand freshmen to do what you do, I mean, you literally meet with every one of our students who are income.

[00:18:25.09] - Laurie Kagay

And their parents.

[00:18:25.79] - Gregg Garner

And their yeah. Like, to do that for a thousand students, there's no way one person could do that. Yeah. Right. You there's no way a team of ten could do that.

[00:18:31.59] - Jeff Sherrod

No. Mhmm. Like,

[00:18:32.00] - Gregg Garner

Like, you probably need a ten of twenty five just just to touch the surface.

[00:18:36.40] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. And they're just not doing that.

[00:18:37.59] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah. No.

[00:18:38.00] - Jeff Sherrod

They're just like yeah.

[00:18:38.59] - Gregg Garner

So so from the president, CEO, and then moving over to the enrollment officer, like, when you're when you're looking at, facility and and personnel, you can get like a rock star professor when you have, ten thousand people enrolled at your school, literally rock star. Like, somebody who used to be a musician who you now conferred a degree on, like, a teacher school. But when you're a smaller school, the the the stewardship element is is much more enhanced. You have to be much more careful about who you're hiring, why you're hiring, and and why you're spending money on that facility or that program or, or that effort. And the way it impacts the enrollment officer is when you're smaller, there's less pressure, to have to, to grow at the rate that maybe a larger school would have to? Just even like, what's what's the average growth rate? Two to four percent

[00:19:36.00] - Laurie Kagay

for schools? Yeah. I think so. And then

[00:19:38.29] - Gregg Garner

You know, you Two to three percent. So you you have

[00:19:40.50] - Laurie Kagay

Enrollment offers will always say one more than last year. Like, that's, like, their their phrase.

[00:19:45.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Okay.

[00:19:45.29] - Laurie Kagay

So, like, if I go backwards

[00:19:46.90] - Gregg Garner

If you have a hundred students at your school, that means you're gonna grow by two or three. Mhmm. Sounds weird. The I'm not sure most colleges just wanna grow by two or three. They definitely wanna maintain, so the idea is maintained. So that means you graduate twenty five, you bring in twenty five more. Hopefully, you bring in twenty seven to twenty eight. Right? So just to keep it in perspective, we're not talking about adding two or three people. Right? We're talking about adding twenty seven, twenty eight people to a school of one hundred. So but you think about that with a school of ten thousand, and you you look at what two to four percent means now, and you're you're adding zeros. Right? You're you're literally adding two zeros onto that. So now you're having to add two to four hundred people to the school, which takes more of a team, which requires less time. And sometimes if you don't have, your your business people, your administration who understand what's required, you get, like, a a a talented enrollment officer, but you give them a small team and a small budget, and they're having to make miracles. Like, there's just a lot of pressure the more students you get out of school, which is why I'm so thankful that we're the body of Christ at large.

[00:20:51.40] - Laurie Kagay

Mhmm.

[00:20:51.70] - Gregg Garner

And that every school can have its niche, and every school should know who it is and what they do.

[00:20:57.40] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:20:57.90] - Gregg Garner

And they should go after students that will will fit, but that's not always the case. Right? Some schools are like, we want them all. They're like Pokemon. They're just gonna catch them all, catch every single student.

[00:21:06.29] - Jeff Sherrod

And I

[00:21:06.50] - Laurie Kagay

think what you're saying is true. Like, even with a small school joke to me. Like, the discernment required to see the value in things. Like, I know I've heard you before talk about your college had a frozen yogurt machine. You know, like, students will be like, but there's Chick fil A in the dining room, or there's a yogurt machine. You know, like, it kinda the bells and whistle kind of things is what they're excited about.

[00:21:29.00] - Gregg Garner

Even thinking about stuff like Chick fil A in the dining room to get the same value meal you actually go to Chick fil A and pay seven dollars for, is costing you sixteen dollars, of which probably thirty percent of it is put on a loan that's now going to be paid off over the next twenty years, cumulatively, you probably pay eighteen, nineteen dollars for your Chick fil A meal, but you don't think about it.

[00:21:50.70] - Laurie Kagay

Right. Because everything's pushed down the road. That's what I was, I was on a call today, and the mom was asking me, now every student gets a mentor. Like, that's interesting. How do how does that work, and how do you accommodate that, and what's the mentor's role? And I was explaining. I was like, you know, students go through challenges, but sometimes they look to the right or their left, you know, those who are right in it with them, and they might just add to the drama of, like, I don't get it either or whatever. I was like, we just we pair them with someone who's been where they are before and is there for all kind of the extra experiences, not just I'm struggling with my homework or, you know, I can't pay my bill, but maybe sometimes, like, my parents are separating or something. You know, like, they and I was like, if we structure it

[00:22:31.50] - Gregg Garner

a spectrum of Right. Things that young people go through.

[00:22:34.00] - Laurie Kagay

And I was like, and if we structure it, then it doesn't become like, well, this one's outgoing and well liked, and they get invited to everyone to houses. It's like, I was like, we make sure everyone has someone who's looking out for them and is ahead of them. But, like, that would be one example

[00:22:47.20] - Gregg Garner

of why. Easier to do with a smaller school.

[00:22:49.20] - Laurie Kagay

It is.

[00:22:49.50] - Jeff Sherrod

I think one of my questions is, like, that's not just automatically happening at all small schools. Like, we've talked that we've brought that up at other schools. I'm like, wait. What do you guys do? Yeah. So I guess, do you think that, that kind of care and concern, sometimes even individuated education, is a product of the school size? Like, does that matter along the lines? Or is it just like, no. This school is they really know what they're doing. They they have they have a

[00:23:13.40] - Gregg Garner

I think it's more that that kind of consideration is more with respect to the school's vision and values. Yeah. I would say. Because it is it if if you want to increase margins, like that parent you're talking to effectively is saying that sounds expensive. Like how do you afford to do that? And, she's right. That parent's right. This there's, there is expense whether it's, monetary or within social currency, there's gonna be some kind of expense, but we pay for what we value.

[00:23:50.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:23:51.09] - Gregg Garner

And, you value typically, especially when it's in an institution, what it is that's in accordance to your vision and your mission. Mhmm. So I know for us as an institution, because we value the development of people, We have to have these things in place. Otherwise, we would be untrue to our mission and our vision. Where other institutions, maybe their value is more connected to, getting people through a program fast. Mhmm. And and, maybe not just getting them through program fast, but doing so with as many, pedigreed accolades as possible so that a resume is boosted. That that's where they're gonna put their funds and their financing. So every class is gonna be taught by a PhD, and maybe, the school's gonna put money into giving sabbaticals so that those PhDs can write books. And that way, they can display, hey. We have academic excellence at our institution, and those are the people teaching your students. That's where their value goes. So I I think every institution, it's it's I don't I'm not sure it's related to size as much as it is to their vision and their mission and what they value.

[00:25:02.70] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. But, certainly, I mean, because if they were like, alright. We're into holistic development, and we wanna develop soft skills in every person and give a mentor, and we have ten thousand students. That's super hard.

[00:25:14.00] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. But I'm not it's not that it's impossible. I I have met so many, student life directors and and enrollment officers who, have that kind of heart that does want to value the development of people, but also get the pushback from administration Yeah. And and maybe even sometimes the trustees of the school, because there's other fiduciary considerations that don't align with those objectives. And so they find themselves frustrated. They would love to have everybody have a mentor, but and, you know, potentially for a lack of imagination, but more likely related to, a value issue. Like, that's just not prioritized in value. We are instead this year getting turf on our field. That's what we value.

[00:26:06.79] - Jeff Sherrod

Right. Mhmm.

[00:26:07.70] - Gregg Garner

So there's no money for that.

[00:26:09.20] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. I think that's real. I think that, one of the things I I was interested in

[00:26:13.90] - Gregg Garner

Which is not to insult anybody. Sure. Because there are some students who'd be like, dude, our school has turf fuel.

[00:26:18.90] - Jeff Sherrod

Exactly right.

[00:26:19.50] - Gregg Garner

So, like, that that's the people they're gonna get. I

[00:26:21.70] - Jeff Sherrod

I mean yeah. Because I That's what

[00:26:22.50] - Laurie Kagay

what I'm saying. I think the students we draw do have a little bit more of a discerning eye where they're like, tell me more about that thing. How do you do

[00:26:29.29] - Gregg Garner

And that's because, you know, that's that's that's because they fit. Right? Right. Like, if a student comes here and they're like, oh, man. I thought it was gonna be more like this and this and this and this. Part of your job as enrollment officer is to say it's not. What do you think? It's not like that. So what do you think about what it is? Because this is what it is. And then that gives you more information with respect to whether or not this is gonna be a good place

[00:26:49.29] - Jeff Sherrod

for them. Yeah. Right. I think it's I I've gone to my first year at college. I was at the University of Tennessee, big school. Even I think at the time, it was twenty five k. But I remember walking into the library.

[00:27:00.50] - Gregg Garner

I mean, yeah, twenty five thousand and a football stadium that can have an attendance of a hundred and nineteen thousand, I think.

[00:27:08.59] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It's at a I think a one third of Knoxville can fit in this stadium at the very place. And

[00:27:13.90] - Laurie Kagay

And I went to Alabama, which is another big, you know, competitor in that space.

[00:27:17.70] - Gregg Garner

You guys are the huge schools.

[00:27:19.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Big schools. I mean, you know, but I remember walking in the lobby the first time. I was like, what is this place? I mean, six stories. You know, I'm a book person, so

[00:27:25.79] - Laurie Kagay

I literally don't even remember the library.

[00:27:28.00] - Jeff Sherrod

I was

[00:27:28.29] - Laurie Kagay

there every story.

[00:27:31.00] - Jeff Sherrod

But then, you know, I went to, Bible college after that, Moody Bible Institute. And then, you know, that one, I think, at the time had, like, twelve hundred students, much smaller. Still had, like, bigger than you know, I I met some professors. I mean, at UT, I met no one. Like, I met no professors. I don't think I had one conversation with a professor.

[00:27:47.09] - Gregg Garner

Mhmm.

[00:27:47.40] - Jeff Sherrod

And then at Moody, I had some. And then when I came to the institute, I was like, wait. This is, you know, this is different. And I think that, yeah, the the undiscerning part would be like, yeah, because they're smaller. They can do all that. You know, the institute being smaller,

[00:28:00.09] - Gregg Garner

they can

[00:28:00.40] - Jeff Sherrod

do all that. And I think that that this is really helpful.

[00:28:02.79] - Gregg Garner

That's just not true.

[00:28:03.70] - Jeff Sherrod

I think this is really helpful because if people were to hear this and be like, that's why I should go to a big school or that's why I should go to a small school, they're kinda missing they're missing the point. The point is to say, where is God leading you? Yeah. You know, like, what what are you looking for, really? You know? Like

[00:28:17.09] - Gregg Garner

And Like, and and does that school that you're heading towards share the vision and the mission and the values that you believe you need to hold yourself.

[00:28:28.59] - Jeff Sherrod

Right. Because a small school that's even in college, that's doing individuated individuated learning, that's doing, like, you know, occupational development, that's doing, soft skills development. This isn't easy just because they're small. Right? They have they because they're small, they have also less, like you've met you said, capital resources.

[00:28:46.29] - Gregg Garner

Less resources. And so

[00:28:47.59] - Jeff Sherrod

now they still they're still making a team

[00:28:49.70] - Laurie Kagay

kind of creativity, a lot of energy, a lot of focus.

[00:28:52.79] - Gregg Garner

Imagination. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

[00:28:54.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. And I think that's where, I was I I I'm happy with how this worked out because I I don't wanna be like small school better because, you know, I think that's, that would be unfair.

[00:29:04.40] - Laurie Kagay

I understand that one.

[00:29:05.40] - Gregg Garner

So It's it's it's a flavor that that people have to choose. Right? Yeah. Because I like, there was a a young guy that graduated from our k-12. Sweetest kid. Love this kid. And, he picked a big school because he that's what he imagined. Like, that's just what he wanted to be a part of. He wants to go to this big school. Lots of lady choices, he he highlighted. Yeah. Just give you the the college life. You know? Mhmm. And with respect to that consideration and what our college, he couldn't say things like, because it's more affordable. He couldn't say that

[00:29:42.20] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:29:42.50] - Gregg Garner

Because it wouldn't be. Ours is is incredibly affordable. He couldn't highlight many of the things that people would talk about when you're discussing private versus, public or state school.

[00:29:57.90] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah.

[00:29:58.70] - Gregg Garner

But he he did just highlight the the difference he wanted in terms of the culture and the feel. And so that was what was attracted to him. Now knowing this kid, I'm not sure he'll be happy once he gets what it is that he's looking for, and he might wanna transfer it and go into something else. But at least he knew what he wanted, and he was going after what he he thought he wanted. So sometimes for for young people, they feel they know what they want, but they don't know what they don't know. And so it's important, I think, that a young person learns to ask a bunch of questions and to find out whether or not what it is they imagine something to be is what it is. Yeah. And so talking to people who like your parents and their college experience, which might be a little more far removed.

[00:30:48.90] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:30:49.59] - Gregg Garner

Talk to some recent graduates, asked them about their experience. When I got to Azusa Pacific and at the time, it had about three thousand students, so, you know, big

[00:31:00.29] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:31:00.90] - Gregg Garner

On the Christian school things. That was a liberal arts school, but nonetheless, I remember talking to a senior who was in the music program. I was a freshman, and he gave me advice I never forgot. He said, listen, you're you're gonna go through this whole experience. You're gonna meet a lot of people, and then you'll never see any of them again. But if you can make a few close friends, just a few close friends and keep them for life, All the money you spent on being here will be well worth it. And then I asked him, I was like, you didn't mention anything about the education. And he goes he goes, oh, you're you're you're a pretty creative musician, Gregg. The the the music program is gonna destroy your your creativity. He's like, yeah. Don't let him do that either. And I was like, woah. But, like, his focus was not even on the scholastic program at all that were in there. And in fact, when he did talk to me about that, he kinda discouraged me to guard what I was doing and and not let them take my innovative creative approach to music. So it was it was an interesting conversation, but, being twenty some years removed from that, I totally agree with him, at least with respect to that experience, which is interesting because then you might ask the question, would it have been better just to go to a smaller school? And what I can tell you about that because I agree with you. It wouldn't be fair to say smaller schools are better. But if you value the opportunity to develop lasting relationships, having the same hundred people in your face all the time, you are much more likely to develop those kinds of relationships Yes. Than having the opportunity to interface with a number of people, you know, thousands of people. Yeah. And I mean, you just try and go through the rotation. You could go your whole college experience and never have to spend time with the same person twice.

[00:32:55.90] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:32:56.09] - Laurie Kagay

Right. And especially if a value of yours is spirituality and accountability. Like, you know, shrinking the number of people you interact with Yeah. Is is helpful for your development. But I actually this was something your daughter said on admissions. She's done some work with me in admissions, and someone asked her, like, oh, what do you think? Your your school seems so small. And she's like, you're gonna make the same number of friends regardless. You know? Like, she's like, whether it's, you know, the pool's this big

[00:33:22.29] - Jeff Sherrod

thousand close

[00:33:22.90] - Laurie Kagay

or this big, you're gonna emerge with the you know? You Yeah. Like, the human being, like, a

[00:33:27.09] - Gregg Garner

What were you gonna say? A dozen? Yeah. Like, twelve? A

[00:33:30.00] - Jeff Sherrod

dozen. You're doing great.

[00:33:31.00] - Gregg Garner

Twelve friends where one betrays you in

[00:33:32.40] - Laurie Kagay

the end? But I think that is part of it too. It's a small school. I think the potential for discipleship where you know like, I mean, my mom for like, she went to a small school. I think it was about three hundred. And but she always told me growing up. She's like, I went to my professor's house for dinner, and that was my favorite thing.

[00:33:52.09] - Gregg Garner

That's cool.

[00:33:53.00] - Laurie Kagay

And so you know? And that's, like, of her whole college experience, that was, like, the thing.

[00:33:57.79] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:33:58.09] - Laurie Kagay

I went to my professor's house for dinner. I studied abroad. Those were, like, kinda her too.

[00:34:02.00] - Gregg Garner

Yeah.

[00:34:02.59] - Laurie Kagay

Things that were shaping for her. But even current studies, like, we were sitting down with Reclaim Today, guys, and they were saying that's something Gen z continues to want is they're, like, above everything of value we have is getting to know our teachers and administrators on a personal level.

[00:34:17.69] - Gregg Garner

Yeah.

[00:34:18.00] - Laurie Kagay

So That's cool. Yeah. I think, like, that desire, you know It it it it's ship.

[00:34:22.40] - Gregg Garner

I really I really love getting to know our students. Having a smaller undergrad program, makes that possible. Yeah. As as the president of the school, with all the things that I have to do, I I I would not be able to accommodate the development of relationships that I do have with students, if there were five times as many of them. You know? I

[00:34:45.00] - Jeff Sherrod

I mean, you know every single one of them. Oh,

[00:34:46.59] - Gregg Garner

Oh, yeah.

[00:34:46.90] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah. You're about to know them real well. Take them take them abroad with you.

[00:34:50.80] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. Yeah. They I I yeah. Little plug here. I I I do get the opportunity to take, usually first and second year students, abroad for a concentrated amount of time. Usually, we're looking at forty days, and, it's it's it's it's like my favorite time of the year.

[00:35:09.19] - Laurie Kagay

And it's and it's where all their ugly comes out. You know? Like like, of all the moments the college president is gonna see you in. Yeah. It would mean they get

[00:35:15.80] - Gregg Garner

to see my ugly too.

[00:35:17.00] - Laurie Kagay

Right. Right.

[00:35:18.50] - Jeff Sherrod

All of the above. Yeah.

[00:35:20.00] - Gregg Garner

But it's it's it's really it's really great experience. But yeah. So they're they're it just it depends again what you want.

[00:35:27.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Mhmm.

[00:35:27.80] - Gregg Garner

And so if you're like, dude, I don't I just wanna be anonymous. I don't wanna be seen or known or heard or whatever. Yeah. Go to bigger

[00:35:34.09] - Jeff Sherrod

school too. Yeah. Bible College.

[00:35:35.19] - Gregg Garner

This is the wrong place.

[00:35:36.80] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Studying the Bible is not gonna be that's not gonna work. Yeah. The same way. Thanks so much for this episode. And for you guys out there, thanks so much for, joining us today. We're honored, for you guys to share this episode, to, subscribe as always if you, to both the

[00:35:52.30] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. You got you gotta subscribe. Help help us out here. We we we need some subscribers, so it's an easy button.

[00:36:00.59] - Laurie Kagay

Just a plus.

[00:36:01.59] - Jeff Sherrod

Thanks, guys. See you guys next time.