Summary

Laurie Kagay, Jeff Sherrod and Institute for Global Outreach Developments president, Gregg Garner discuss the challenges faced by Christian students in secular colleges, emphasizing the importance of a strong foundation in biblical education. They highlight the need for proper discipleship, Biblical literacy, and integration of faith into all aspects of life to effectively spread the light of Christ. The conversation addresses misconceptions about learning the Bible and the trend of Bible colleges focusing less on biblical education. The speakers stress the importance of setting up healthy systems within the church to prepare young people for their role in transforming the world. They also discuss reasons why students may choose secular colleges over Christian institutions and the importance of biblical literacy in various fields for ethical decision-making.

S2E14: College Conversations Podcast - “Why Being ‘A Light in the Darkness’ of a Secular College is a Bad Idea” (Transcript)

[00:00:11.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Hey, everyone, and welcome back to College Conversations podcast about all things related to Christian higher education. We are here to talk to prospective students and their parents, people who are interested in Christian higher education and its growing trends and its relevance for today. My name is Jeff Sherrod. I am joined by the president of the Institute for Global Outreach Developments, Mr. Gregg Garner, and Mrs. Laurie Kagay, who is the Director of Enrollment and Marketing at the Institute as well. Thanks for being here, guys. Today, we're talking about this issue. Laurie, I know that this is something that comes up in in in enrollment work. This kind of growing, maybe even common perception that Christian students, people are coming from churches, one of the reasons that they're choosing secular colleges is so that they can be a light in the darkness. It’s like, you know, it's almost evangelistic pursuit to go to a secular school. So, yeah, I'm interested because this is something that you've heard several times. Like, people sometimes are looking at our school or they're looking at the University of Tennessee, and they might say, you know, what's the difference here and what's happening? Like, well, I wanna be a light in the darkness even for those people. You know, secular students also need Jesus, and we say that's true. But, yeah, maybe you can just kinda say, based on your perspective, how common is this kind of mindset?

[00:01:32.40] - Laurie Kagay

I would say it's very common. Like so by the stats, they say only a third of students who come from Christian high schools will continue in a Christian college. So that's probably, you know, the group if we're looking at who would come to a Christian college that are probably the most likely. Not the only ones, but definitely likely. So only a third of Christian high school students who graduate from Christian high schools are going to college. Likewise going to Christian college

[00:01:58.00] - Gregg Garner

Going to Christian college.

[00:01:58.50] - Laurie Kagay

Going to Christian college. Sorry. Not college. Christian college. Likewise, there's other stats that are related to, you know, of all the students who were in church last Sunday, how many of them are gonna pursue a biblical higher education?

[00:02:11.19] - Gregg Garner

It's, like, less than one percent. Right?

[00:02:12.90] - Laurie Kagay

Right. Specifically, when they wanna study the Bible, it's less than one percent. But even if you do, like, ministry, missions, you know, anything in that is, like, not much higher than one percent

[00:02:24.69] - Gregg Garner

Yeah.

[00:02:25.00] - Laurie Kagay

At all. So it's very common. I mean, I remember it when I went to college. So, I mean, I graduated in 2002. But I think I even went with that

[00:02:35.40] - Gregg Garner

Mentality?

[00:02:36.19] - Laurie Kagay

Mentality in mind. I think that's kind of how our church trained us. Yeah. It was like, you can do anything for Jesus, and there's a world that's lost. So not only, like, can you, but even kind of this obligation. Like, don't you care about a world that's lost? Then you should go in this in this direction. But even if you're just looking

[00:02:58.90] - Gregg Garner

A secular college campus is a missionary field.

[00:03:03.59] - Laurie Kagay

Yes. Yeah.

[00:03:04.09] - Gregg Garner

Right. Right. For evangelism.

[00:03:05.80] - Laurie Kagay

That's what they'll even say. This is the mission field.

[00:03:08.69] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:03:09.40] - Laurie Kagay

Therefore, that's where you should head.

[00:03:11.40] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:03:11.80] - Laurie Kagay

A world in need of you. I think even, like, even looking at, what people are saying, whether, like, Christian magazines, Christian blogs, there's more of those supporting the idea that Christians should go into secular colleges than there are the opposite. So, typically, it's Christian colleges who are saying, no. Please come here. Like, there is an obligation that you should study theologically, you know, at this age. But even, like, a source I would think is pretty normal and common for people to go to, like, at the gospel coalition. They have sources that are, you know, are a proponent of this idea. So they're like and the reasons they name are, it forces you to ask hard questions. It bolsters an individual's evangelism. It shows you the gift of the church.

[00:04:05.69] - Jeff Sherrod

Okay.

[00:04:06.09] - Laurie Kagay

You know, like, there you go.

[00:04:07.50] - Jeff Sherrod

I think it might be fun to maybe take those in turn, if that's, like, you know, part of the agenda that's happening. Because I had a similar experience even when, me and a lot of my friends from high school, you know, we had met Gregg, who was doing ministry in Knoxville at the time. And for a lot of us, we were like, yeah. We wanna do ministry. We wanna wanna go and learn the Bible. And I would say the advice we got was, well, even from our pastor, which was, well, have you considered business instead? Maybe, you know, do bible later if it comes up. And I think that along with that came this idea too that there's there's campus ministries that you could get plugged into at secular schools. And you've been learning the Bible all this time, and now it's this is a great opportunity to be able to share your faith with people that maybe don't know it already. So, I think yeah. So this has been around at least since, you know, I was

[00:04:57.60] - Laurie Kagay

We entered college. Since we entered college.

[00:04:59.39] - Gregg Garner

I think it's important for us to contextualize this moment compared to when you guys were in college twenty years ago. And recognize that twenty years ago, when you all were getting out of high school, you probably I'm definitely estimating here, but you probably had ten times the amount of biblical knowledge than a church kid graduating from a youth group does now.

[00:05:21.69] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. I think we've already

[00:05:23.19] - Gregg Garner

I think we’ve all noted the trends, that incoming freshmen who are straight out of high school have very little biblical knowledge these days. I mean, you can bring up like Samuel or some of the other major prophets, and they would know nothing about them. What they know about Moses is limited to what they saw in the cartoon Prince of Egypt. What they know about Jesus is limited to some of his miracles, and they actually don't know any of his teachings.

[00:05:53.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:05:53.30] - Gregg Garner

They don't know how to interpret parables. Like, there's there's a lot that's missing. Given twenty years ago, students graduating high school still needed a biblical education.

[00:06:02.60] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:06:02.89] - Laurie Kagay

Right.

[00:06:03.30] - Gregg Garner

But today, there's even, it seems, less biblical context for them entering into their collegiate experience that would make them an even weaker vessel for God to use in a secular environment to light up that darkness.

[00:06:23.30] - Laurie Kagay

Right. Right.

[00:06:24.39] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Almost like this perception that simply because you went to church, you're now prepared to I mean, even the first one here is like, what? Like, answer the hard questions? Is that what

[00:06:35.69] - Gregg Garner

I mean, Bible ask the hard questions.

[00:06:37.30] - Laurie Kagay

Even where

[00:06:37.60] - Gregg Garner

We get light in the darkness, it comes from the prologue from John. Right? And we learned that in the beginning was the word, and word was with God. The word was God. He was in the beginning of God. All things are made through him. There's nothing that was made without him. And then jumped to or and then, in him was life that became the light of all men. And the darkness tried to extinguish it, but it couldn't.

[00:06:58.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:06:58.89] - Gregg Garner

So we we get that The light comes from the fact that he is the word. And by the time we get to verse fourteen and he's the word become flesh who dwells among us, the the darkness that's in this world now is encountering a living manifestation of the word of God. Not a high school graduate. So I think when we're like, hey. We got our high school graduates. Timmy over here is gonna do fantastic. Stats would tell us otherwise. Right?

[00:07:29.19] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:07:29.50] - Gregg Garner

Because right now, we, as a Christian community at large, are in a very tumultuous period

[00:07:39.30] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:07:40.10] - Gregg Garner

With respect to this generation. And the ways in which they are having to come against the hard questions. How do you come against a hard question when you got no word in you?

[00:07:51.89] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. I mean, maybe you rely on, like I don't actually I think you're probably silent.

[00:07:55.50] - Gregg Garner

I think what I think what ends up happening is they they fall into the deconstruction trap. I think that's what the next step is. You know, their church hurt, and then they're an evangelical.

[00:08:08.19] - Jeff Sherrod

Right. Because I had no answers for their questions. And they have great points of view here.

[00:08:13.89] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. Yeah. And and you have a world system that supports a perspective that doesn't come from a biblical revelation, but your eyes may not be open to what that biblical revelation is. So now you are blind being led by blind, and you're falling into a ditch, but that's the problem. Right? Like, blind people don't know what's happening. They're just like, I'm stuck with these hard questions. Well, it must not be a true faith, and we just gotta realize love wins. I don't know. Some pedantic slogan that captures our desire to be good people but disassociates us from the faith we grew up with. Because, again, we're I don't know. It seems like there's a couple camps. Right? One that's gonna push apologetics on the high school kids

[00:09:10.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Right. Right.

[00:09:10.50] - Gregg Garner

And make them have an answer for everything. But now the kids being indoctrinated, they're not necessarily learning how to read the Bible. They're just learning biblical answers, which come from a person who read the Bible.

[00:09:23.39] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:09:23.79] - Gregg Garner

There's a difference. There's a difference. Now at a Bible college, we teach you how to read the Bible. For yourself. For yourself. We which is not a bad thing. That's a fantastic thing. You teach people how to develop a critical approach to reading scripture. By critical, I don't mean someone who's a critic

[00:09:42.39] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:09:42.70] - Gregg Garner

Like, who's just gonna be negative and suspicious of anything going on, but that you're going to be examining the text in such a way that you anticipate how to make sense of it for other people who don't know how to read it. And who you want to be able to read for themselves. So you actually pay attention to the words in the text. There are not many youth groups, maybe very few youth groups that are teaching hermeneutics to their kids with any kind of diligence and rigor that would produce a person who we can say was and the word became flesh in Timmy when he entered into college.

[00:10:22.39] - Laurie Kagay

Right.

[00:10:22.70] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:10:22.89] - Gregg Garner

So that he the darkness couldn't extinguish him. Instead, what we're seeing is that the the darkness is extinguishing them.

[00:10:28.60] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:10:29.79] - Gregg Garner

They are indeed deconstructing, church hurting, and, wanting to find something else.

[00:10:37.29] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah. And that's not an assumption. Like, that's backed by data too. So, like, the data there is seventy percent of kids who once considered themselves Christians, who went to church, will lose their faith by the time they're done with college. Seventy percent. And then it jumps to eighty

[00:10:52.20] - Gregg Garner

Is that just college in general, or is that secular college?

[00:10:55.39] - Laurie Kagay

No. It's just the college age generally.

[00:10:57.60] - Gregg Garner

I wonder if it's higher if it was just secular college. Because I imagine it'd be more challenging to not be immersed in Christian community. Now I think we should take a position here so that people who are listening hear us for what we're saying and don't hear what we're not saying. Alright? I think that college campuses are wonderful mission grounds and a great place for evangelism. I do not think that students fresh out of high school are perhaps the best prepared for that mission field. They need to enter into discipleship before they can become a laborer. In the same way, we require an engineer to go to school and learn how to be an engineer before he starts building bridges so people don't die on them. We need to get our students into bible school so they can learn the word of God, and in that case, more effectively construct the bridge that is going to get these students on secular campuses to know the Lord. And that's why I do think campus ministries are wonderful. Campus ministries are awesome because it should be people who have been discipled in God's word, who know the word, who are now loving on these kids at this school. And so those ministries are, in that case, outstanding. And I think that there's a place for them. But to think that it should be my duty as a high school kid who hasn't developed discipleship capacity as a result of learning the word and following Jesus, that I'm gonna go light up the darkness, I'm gonna find myself in a very challenging, if not, impossible situation. And I know that people will say, well, with God, all things are possible, But that's not a generalized statement that just applies to anything. There's with God, all things are possible on the other side of obedience. Like, you still gotta do the things that God wants, and that includes being a disciple of Jesus, really learning what it is that he wants. So, yeah, I think I wanted to take that position Yeah. And say we're not against campus ministries. We're not against seeing secular schools as a mission field, but we are questioning this idea that says a high school student is doing a good move, like, a good, thing when they go to a secular college having in mind they're gonna light up the world Yeah. With the the the light of Christ.

[00:13:30.79] - Laurie Kagay

Right, and we'd probably have that same critique on, you know, eighteen year olds who wanna go on the mission field at eighteen. Like, yeah. You're just probably not ready for the mission field at that point in time. Need better depth. But I think some of it probably comes from a misunderstanding of what bible college is or even Christian colleges studying God's word is. Like, that it's this restrictive scenario where you're only protecting a set of beliefs and not, like, that critical reading

[00:13:57.10] - Jeff Sherrod

I think the way I hear it negatively is that this is, you know, like, this, it's not the real world. It's this bubble that sometimes gets created, and it's not preparing people for, I think, yeah, the real world, which is you guys don't know about.

[00:14:11.29] - Laurie Kagay

Literally, what's all some of these magazines and things say? Like, regular college campuses are closer to the real world.

[00:14:21.00] - Gregg Garner

It fundamentally misses what it is we're on mission to do, and that is flip the world upside down. Bring about transformation, advance the kingdom of God, salt this real world with the realest eternal world.

[00:14:37.20] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:14:37.70] - Gregg Garner

It's a really backwards way of thinking about all that.

[00:14:39.89] - Laurie Kagay

It is.

[00:14:40.39] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah and I hate the term real world sometimes because I what do we like, what is fake? You know, if we're living our lives in obedience to Jesus, we're saying that's fake.

[00:14:51.10] - Gregg Garner

Yeah.

[00:14:51.29] - Jeff Sherrod

I don't get the contrast sometimes, or we're just acknowledging that what as you're saying, Gregg, what should be the standard is, a society that's not built on God's expectations, and we have to get ready for that world to primarily control the narrative. But if we don't engage that early enough or soon enough

[00:15:11.20] - Gregg Garner

Say that again, man. Say that again.

[00:15:12.70] - Jeff Sherrod

So, like, this idea that, like, if the real world is a society that doesn't acknowledge God's expectations

[00:15:19.10] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:20.29] - Jeff Sherrod

Then we're just avoiding that and not able to really engage, you know, like, God's God's expectation. Yeah. Again, it kinda goes back to this fakeness.

[00:15:27.70] - Gregg Garner

I think if we were gonna break it down into generations, maybe we loosely could say, like, the grandparents of current college students, the parents of current college students, and then the college students. So, effectively, we've got Gen z, millennial/xers

[00:15:43.39] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:15:44.10] - Gregg Garner

And then boomers.

[00:15:45.10] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:15:45.50] - Gregg Garner

Right? For those three three generations. And, each of them have a different context of Christianity that they came up in. And it was in that era of, in a sense, experience into the world at large, that they formed their own narrative with respect to what we should be busied with as a children of God. So the boomers, they come up in, like, the the the seventies and eighties on the heels of, like, Youth for Christ and Billy Graham

[00:16:21.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Yep.

[00:16:21.29] - Gregg Garner

And crusades and evangelism and campus ministries.

[00:16:24.60] - Jeff Sherrod

A lot of campus ministries.

[00:16:25.89] - Gregg Garner

A lot of campus ministry. I mean, the student ministry movement was huge. And to them, there is a very important evangelical reality connected to spreading the gospel on campus.

[00:16:41.20] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Mhmm.

[00:16:42.10] - Gregg Garner

So so there's a nostalgia there

[00:16:44.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:16:44.39] - Gregg Garner

That creates a a great sense of importance that they're gonna wanna see, their kids their grandkids potentially engaged in. So I don't think a grandparent would necessarily be alarmed if their kid goes to a secular college. I think in their world, there were less Christian colleges at the time, but also, they were probably themselves in a secular college when they came to know Jesus on the campus ministry. Yeah. Something along those lines. Then you got the Boomer/Xers who are deconstructing. So many I'm sorry. The Xer Millennials

[00:17:18.79] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:17:19.09] - Gregg Garner

Are deconstructing. So many of them are are getting online to talk about their church hurt. They are, and I'm not trying to minimize the fact that someone could have gotten hurt in church, but I am highlighting the trend that seems to preexist on the journey towards deconstruction.

[00:17:41.70] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:17:42.29] - Gregg Garner

So people are airing their church hurt, and then they enter into forms of deconstruction. And then they're trying to situate their faith. And this has been their adulthood, and their kids have been raised underneath this. So Gen z kids now came up during the great recession

[00:17:59.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:18:00.20] - Gregg Garner

Which then challenged the notion of those millennials and xers who likely, in their pursuit of following Jesus, decided money wasn't important. I'm going to pursue this higher calling

[00:18:11.20] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:18:11.79] - Gregg Garner

And I'm gonna be in Christian ministry. Great recession hit. And they're like, why'd I do that? Now we're suffering. We might be out of home. And then they reinvented themselves and then got into a work culture that started creating revenue for them that eliminated some of the anxiety they had before. And there's now they're trying to figure out what life is in Christ in light of the previous generation's experience, the trajectory they were on by faith disrupted by the great recession, the discovery they've had now that they can navigate life with with these, tools that they achieved going to engineering school or whatever it was that's now producing them capacity where they're they're not only supporting their family, but they support missionaries, and they do other things. And the kid is kinda watching this growing up and as a Gen z kid, and they're seeing inconsistency in church attendance. They're witnessing the increased podcast listening, and it doesn't have to be Christian anymore. It could be self improvement. It could be business improvement. They are watching, the different expressions of their parents' faith on the personal level. My dad's a Christian, but he he smokes a cigar. He's a gangster like CS Lewis. Or, my mom is a a salsa instructor who leads a bible study and, you know, like, they have these new synthesized experiences of their parents figuring out their faith in a world that's different than their grandparents. So the parents are kind of quiet on some levels, but on other ones, specifically, in my opinion, with respect to finances, they're very verbal. Right. Like, you need to consider here some financial things that a bible college is not gonna get you a job and etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. So I think if we look at the breakdown and then we now look at Gen z or coming up in that, feeling the pressure to do well academically so they can get into a good college, and that a good college is necessarily a college that's going to to get you the a specific degree in a field that pays a good amount of money. This seems to be the priority consideration. In that case, this is secular universities all over.

[00:20:35.29] - Laurie Kagay

And I think not only in the home, also in the church. Like, we were noting, like, pastors are like, how about this?

[00:20:40.50] - Gregg Garner

We're trying to figure out new degrees at our our school now. We're gonna have a degree in this thing that's a good job that makes people money, and this thing that's a good job that makes people money. But we're still bible school because we give twelve credits

[00:20:53.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:20:53.90] - Gregg Garner

Of Bible, which let's all be very clear right now. Twelve units, four classes

[00:20:59.90] - Jeff Sherrod

Four classes. Yep.

[00:21:01.00] - Gregg Garner

Is not going to teach you the Bible.

[00:21:02.20] - Jeff Sherrod

That's serve that's two survey classes. Now you maybe have two more left.

[00:21:05.70] - Laurie Kagay

Two surveys, Genesis and a Romans. I think that's how it normally pans out.

[00:21:10.59] - Gregg Garner

I think these days, it'd probably be, like, two surveys, a Christian culture.

[00:21:16.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Christian culture or foundations kind of class.

[00:21:18.20] - Laurie Kagay

Or church doctrines.

[00:21:19.20] - Gregg Garner

Or practicing Christian Ministry or something like that. Christian ministry. Nonetheless, we're not learning the Bible in twelve units. There's a lot there. And so it comes back to whether or not people have a conviction that says you wanna light up the world, you light it up with the word of God. You don't know the word of God, you're not enlightening it. You, like, recently, I was in a conversation with someone, and they were telling me about a program. And in telling telling me about a program, they highlighted that the program utilizes secular textbooks. And then I was like, so does it take does it teach a biblical perspective? And they were like, yes. Now I had a hard time understanding. How you could use a secular textbook to teach a biblical perspective.

[00:22:15.09] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:22:16.00] - Gregg Garner

That now I don't mind using secular textbooks as a contrast or as a way of introducing people to how folks think in the world, especially at a Bible school. But I don't know how you can teach a biblical perspective from a secular textbook. But I think that because people believe such can happen when it is that they are themselves considering their kid going to a secular institution. They dichotomize the experience. They're like, the stuff this kid's gonna learn at the secular institution is not gonna affect their faith. And they're gonna be good kids because they're gonna they're gonna grow up and get a job and have a family and and take care of business. So I think even families today, there's there's just not a lot of thought or consideration into what god wants for our kids, first and foremost. I just don't think it's there.

[00:23:12.70] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. And I think that even because this this concept of, you know, go to, kinda years of adversity, be a a light in the darkness, that's gotta come from Gen z's parents primarily, right, like, where they're saying, you know, at least supporting that idea. But I wonder and I know we can't get into their head, but I wonder if it is them really believing you are going to change this college campus or if it's just a way of assuaging guilt, for, like, well, you maybe you're not going to learn the Bible.

[00:23:42.20] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. I think for a lot of them, it's probably the the latter because they're like, the kid has this conviction. They wanna go learn the Bible. Yeah. And the parents are, like, thinking in their head, you go learn the Bible, you're gonna still be living in my house when you graduate. This isn't gonna be good. We don't want that for you. We want you maybe you can learn the Bible after you get a degree. So that you have something to fall back on.

[00:24:10.59] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. And I don't know. I mean, how many times we hear that from parents.

[00:24:13.00] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah parents are just like, you learn the Bible at church. You can learn you can read some books on the side.

[00:24:16.40] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. You know, like taking the most complicated book in the history of humanity and you’re going to learn it in thirty minutes on Sunday through a homiletic. So these I do think that they they need sometimes they need an excuse, and I don't think they're trying to make an excuse. This is an excuse that's given to them. And it comes from the I think it comes from the boomers. The whole boomer generation is like, we need lights in the darkness, lights in the darkness, lights in the darkness. But you're not supposed to be illuminating the word with your word, world with your word. You’re supposed to be illuminating the world with the light that comes from God, that comes from his word. Because you can't separate, in the gospel of John, light and the word.

[00:24:59.20] - Jeff Sherrod

That's right. Yeah.

[00:25:00.00] - Gregg Garner

Like, the the world is lit up because the word becomes incarnate.

[00:25:05.00] - Laurie Kagay

And I think people miss that. I think they think I said yes to Jesus. I got saved. Therefore, I have this light. I'm ready to share.

[00:25:11.40] - Gregg Garner

Yeah.

[00:25:11.59] - Laurie Kagay

You know, like, the, like, learning of the word somehow taken on off of that.

[00:25:16.20] - Gregg Garner

I became a Christian. I put on a Jesus T shirt. I'm a light. I'm just gonna repeat his name over and over again. It's like, meeting someone who claims to be your favorite sports teams fan. They're like, yeah. I'm a I'm a total Grizz fan. And then you start asking them a question. What do you think about Gigi? They're like, who? I love Ja Morant. It's like, what? He hasn't played all season. You don't know who Gigi Jackson is? It's like, oh, I'm not really following him right now, but, you know, like, I they're like my favorite team. That's what I think a lot of Christians are like today. They have the association down.

[00:25:52.50] - Laurie Kagay

Right.

[00:25:52.79] - Gregg Garner

They've claimed favorites. They really love God. They really love Jesus. They know about him, but they don't know anything about him. And that's offensive for people to hear because, unfortunately, we're more concerned with people's sense of comfort than we are with their actual capacity for truth. And those are the hard questions that get asked at a Bible college.

[00:26:20.79] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. That's the real problem.

[00:26:22.79] - Gregg Garner

You don’t get those questions asked at a secular college. The questions asked at a secular college, they ain't asking questions. They're not asking questions at all. They're teaching. They're just telling you. You came from a monkey. Here's one that's an assumed. Nobody in college is teaching evolution. Evolution is the assumption. Right? I think people think they're going to college and they're like, let's let's talk to you about it. Let's talk to you about Darwin. No. It's all the assumption. Evolution is where it's at. And so they just talk along those lines. There are many other theories that are just assumed in a secular education, which includes the social Darwinism.

[00:27:03.70] - Jeff Sherrod

All of the social theories that we have. I mean, if they're teaching, maybe it's some technical knowledge that's happening. But most of, like, our social construct for how they see the world, these are assumptions. That are coming at us.

[00:27:15.20] - Gregg Garner

Term theory. Which theory is just an assumption nobody’s been able to mess with too much at this point. So I do believe that if we keep word and light inextricable from one another. That in and of itself could solve the issue we're talking about. Because you can then look at a high school student ready to go to college and say, hey. Do you have enough word in you so that when you are enraptured by the darkness, you'll be able to not be overcome by it. Because, statistically, seven out of ten of your peers coming from your church won't be able to. And to be actually concerned with their future well-being in Christ should be our premier lens by which we consider how it is we're sending our young people into, their future. And I just don't think think

[00:28:18.29] - Laurie Kagay

Right, I think our premier lens in money. I was just gonna say. But it's like, but I have a scholarship. But I can go there, you know, and take advantage of the state fund. Or I can do this. So that's, you know, that's money. I have this, so I need to do that. Or I don't know.

[00:28:38.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. What what would you if someone were to say, though, I think that maybe a secular college is maybe they're not there yet with all that word, but this is really gonna push them to make faith their own as opposed to a sheltered environment, which is, I think, said pejoratively. Right? It's like somehow shelter means bad. But, yeah, this is gonna help them. Now now maybe we're ignoring the statistics here, but they're still believing this is gonna help them to get around people and sharpen their their faith. What what do you what what do you guys think?

[00:29:09.00] - Gregg Garner

Nonsense. I think it's all nonsense. I don't even know how a person can think like that. The only thing it's gonna make you is argumentative. Because the the idea there is that the student has such strong convictions that they will defend those convictions from other people who have a difference in opinion. And if you're gonna have any kind of reasonable conversation with someone, you can't just beat them over the head with your convictions. You have to be able to give reason for why you believe what you believe. Now when a person does that by mere proof texting, well, it says here that Jesus is this and did that and aren't capable of explaining, really helping people to walk through the understanding because they themselves lack the understanding, you just kinda get into culture wars. It just becomes a way of and I think there are some doctrines that make themselves readily available for that scenario, such as, you know, "yeah. They just they weren't experiencing that irresistible grace, so that's on them.” You know?

[00:30:22.79] - Jeff Sherrod

God didn't call.

[00:30:23.50] - Gregg Garner

We'll move on. We'll move on here. Rather than recognizing that you still have to be able to communicate that grace. Like, it's not magic. You have to be able to communicate the gospel, and it's something you learn. It it's like we forgot that before the leaders of the church were the leaders of the church, they were disciples. And we're like, guys, go be leaders of the church. You're a disciple because you love Jesus. You're a disciple because you went to church. We didn't track your attendance. We didn't, like, qualify or assess whether or not you apprehended what it was we were giving you. But nonetheless…

[00:31:07.90] - Laurie Kagay

You put the t shirt on.

[00:31:09.40] - Gregg Garner

Get out there and make it happen. Right. Shine the light. And I think we need to look at results.

[00:31:15.00] - Jeff Sherrod

We do.

[00:31:16.00] - Gregg Garner

And the results say that we are increasingly moving towards secularization. Even look at our Bible colleges.

[00:31:23.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:31:23.79] - Gregg Garner

They're like, oof, we gotta capture this next generation. So what do we gotta do? Teach less bible, teach more other stuff. I'm not making this up.

[00:31:31.79] - Jeff Sherrod

No. That's what's happening. Falling apart. Alright. Let's say someone is saying, like, yeah. Bible college sounds great, but I'm not I don't feel a call towards, you know, full time ministry. So, you know, like, so I think

[00:31:43.40] - Gregg Garner

So there's a misconception there. Right?

[00:31:45.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:31:45.20] - Gregg Garner

That learning the Bible is to do ministry

[00:31:47.70] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:31:48.09] - Gregg Garner

Rather than learning the Bible is to know God. You don't need to be called in the ministry. You to experience discipleship, you need to be called into a relationship with God for whom you believe Jesus is the way. And that in following him, you can be discipled in the way that he reveals to us who God is. And that being the case, you're growing in your knowledge of the Lord, but also who it is that you are as a child of God and disciple of Jesus. So it's not about discipling in the ministry because it really there's skills that need to be learned to do ministry. Right? Discipleship is about the development of your person, that you are his workmanship, that you are becoming a mature person for whom Christ is the head of the body you're developing into as a part of a group, a community. You don't get that just automatically.

[00:32:49.09] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:32:49.40] - Gregg Garner

There's we're supposed to be as the church setting up the systems, the healthy life giving systems that a young person can move through so that at the end of their experience, they are prepared for the transformation they should be bringing about to the world around them.

[00:33:10.40] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. And I think you're bringing up a great point here. It's like this idea that suddenly we're reducing all of college down to just skill formation, whether it's like and it's only job preparedness because, you know, ministry can be a job. Or something else can be a job as opposed to the becoming, which is what this can really be. You know? Like, people can become Jesus's disciples. During this time, like a period of time that you're giving over to God and saying this is your time. It's not my time. It's a special time in someone's life. It's time that we don't quite get back in the same way when we grow up and get married and have kids. Changes. But it's a period that is unique, to be able to say, this is a time I'm gonna dedicate to God. We had a pastor that came and did a, a talk recently, and we were showing him around the school. And, you know, he's a local pastor. He's like but he was like he was like, man, I just wish every Christian kid went to a Bible college. He was like, it'll serve them dividends their whole life, like, their whole life, regardless of what they do. And I was like, man, I just wish more pastors would say that. I don't know if it always works out that way, but

[00:34:15.80] - Laurie Kagay

I think what ends up happening, I think it exposes that the church hasn't set them up well for a Christian life. Like, the fact that even they're not feeling the need to develop in Christ, that students are graduating and, like, got it. Like, as though faith is that easy to obtain or, those were those were some of, like, the, I think, background things. I think, like, what you're saying, maybe light in the darkness. You know, this thing is to assuage the guilt or whatever, when in reality, maybe they just don't want to go to bible school, or their parents don't want them to go. Like, some of the responses of, like, you know, why are you why will you not go to Christian college? It a lot came back to the church. So, like

[00:35:02.09] - Jeff Sherrod

Because the church is already changing.

[00:35:03.69] - Laurie Kagay

Like quotes. No. Just like the church is boring.

[00:35:07.40] - Jeff Sherrod

Oh, gotcha.

[00:35:08.30] - Laurie Kagay

The church is boring. Thirty one percent of of

[00:35:11.50] - Gregg Garner

Yeah, tell us your stats.

[00:35:12.59] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah. Stats. So the church is boring. Thirty one percent.

[00:35:16.09] - Gregg Garner

And this is this is a survey of what? What were the questions asked?

[00:35:19.00] - Laurie Kagay

The was a survey of, like, Christian high school students regarding why are you going to a secular college or why not.

[00:35:26.90] - Jeff Sherrod

Okay. Okay.

[00:35:27.69] - Laurie Kagay

And some of the reasons behind

[00:35:29.80] - Gregg Garner

Their experience with church with what they could be experiencing at a Bible institution.

[00:35:33.50] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah. Because I think that's the the question at the outset. Why don't you continue in this direction? Here were some of the the answers that they had. So one, church is boring. Two, faith is not relevant to my career or interest. It's twenty four percent of kids.

[00:35:52.69] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Interest just makes it real. Like, I don't care.

[00:35:57.90] - Laurie Kagay

And these are who that mean, this is what's graduating the church, I guess. God seems missing from my experience of church, twenty percent. So they're just, you know, questioning, is he even in it in any of this? Church teachings are out of date, forty percent. I feel forced to choose between my faith and my friends, Twenty nine percent. Christianity doesn't really help with the things I'm dealing with, like depression or other emotional problems. Those were, like,

[00:36:27.50] - Gregg Garner

Some there.

[00:36:27.90] - Laurie Kagay

That was eighteen percent.

[00:36:30.30] - Laurie Kagay

It was a little bit lower. But I think that's the reality too is, like, the stats on what church is producing in Christian kids isn't great. So then if the pastor

[00:36:42.00] - Jeff Sherrod

is starting to know.

[00:36:42.90] - Laurie Kagay

Right. If that's the only thing they know. These are these are some of the reasons, you know, students are leaving the faith. You know, Barna's a little protective to say that seventy percent are leaving the faith. It's not solely to do with the college experience. You know, some is, you know, realities like this. But, yeah, overall, it's it's, like, it's something, I think, similar to what you say, which is the Christianity in America is great for kids, not so good for adults.

[00:37:10.09] - Gregg Garner

Yeah.

[00:37:10.50] - Laurie Kagay

Like, it doesn't stand the test of time in that way, what we're serving up to kids on a regular basis. There's also, not finding the quote now, but there's, like, also a suspicion, like, that Christianity is shallow or antagonistic to science. So when kids are wanting to go, like, into the medical field or into something science related, they feel like they can't really do that at a Christian college or it's gonna, you know, bring down the standard or something like that.

[00:37:37.40] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. I mean, that's unfortunate. I think, though, if someone's listening, you know, for you guys that are listening to this, and you're wondering, like, you know, what is the next step, I you know, we're not gonna be able to deal with apathy for Johnny down the street that I don't know and I've never met. But what we can do is to say, like, for if you're listening to this and you're, like, thinking about Christian college, you're thinking about learning the Bible, this is I don't think you can look and say, well, my mom went to a state school, my grandmother went to a state school, and they worked out fine. I think, Gregg, as you're noting, like, this has changed.

[00:38:13.90] - Gregg Garner

Right.

[00:38:14.19] - Jeff Sherrod

Like, this is there is a new, responsibility. And I think in that way, also a great opportunity, to, like, to learn God because for for a world that is in need, you know, and looking for direction. It says, I don't think that the stakes are low in that way. We're really trying to say this is even when you look at statistics like this, people don't care. They don't think the church has any answers. Like, this was what church was for millennia, was answers. It was the passion. It was what gave people the spice of life, you know, like, because they were just doing work all the time. And for it to lose that distinctiveness, that flavor is tragic. You know, we have not lost that probably just recently, and it's probably a long time coming. But probably because also, both individually and collectively, we just have said no to God's word. No to learning it or it's, I already kinda have it. We all know God from the least of us to the greatest. You know? It's like this this perception that, like, knowing God just comes to us culturally, and now we're seeing the fallout of that.cThere's there's a there's a there's a need. I think that with anything that and sometimes we get on these, like, man, there's so much need, and I can get like, oh, gosh. There's a lot of need, but there's also a lot of opportunity, you know, for people that are listening to this and be like, man, I wanna do something about that. I wanna I wanna help with this in the way that I can. And the way that we do help is what we become, a person who is, like Jesus, and we know that comes from God's word.

[00:39:45.59] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. That's good, Jeff. I think the distinction you were making earlier with regard to somebody who feels called to ministry versus someone who doesn't, I would still hold that discipleship is necessary for both parties.

[00:40:00.09] - Laurie Kagay

Right.

[00:40:00.50] - Gregg Garner

But I also recognize that there are some people who, with their careers, they want to get into various fields, like, fields in science. And they wanna do so fiscally responsibly fiscally responsible. And in that case, they do wanna access those other, grant and federal aid tools that sometimes aren't available to Christian institutions because of the way that our world's designed. And, it creates a conflict because now you have a person who wants to go and be, I don't know, a scientist of some sort, and they don't wanna lose out on their eligibility for aid. So then they have to find a school that will help them to do that most effectively.

[00:40:52.59] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm. Mhmm.

[00:40:54.00] - Gregg Garner

You already narrow down your bible institutions to hardly any. And now it's gotta be at best a Christian liberal arts school, of which now you're gonna take twelve units Right. Which does not take you to that place of discipleship. So there is a hard There is. Situation that needs to be remedied, especially if we believe that that kid who's going to become that scientist needs a biblical worldview.

[00:41:23.30] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:41:23.90] - Gregg Garner

And that if he or she doesn't get that biblical worldview prior to becoming a scientist, they will have a worldview that comes from someone else. And they are going to work according to that worldview. So there there has to be a fundamental change in the church's mindset at large with respect to what it is we're enlightening the world towards.

[00:41:49.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:41:49.69] - Gregg Garner

So I wanna be explicit. We are not against people learning science. We are not against people working in various fields. Like, we find it a gift we have to offer to the world, especially when the person who's doing that is biblically literate.

[00:42:04.90] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:42:05.09] - Laurie Kagay

That's right.

[00:42:05.50] - Gregg Garner

Because a biblically literate person who becomes a computer programmer isn't going to program according to what creates the greatest profit. They're now going to be working with that AI with a sense of of moral expectation that comes from recognizing people are created in the image of God. So in contrast to certain algorithms that are being created in some nations where they don't have a fear of God or a knowledge that comes from God. The the algorithm literally will get some of these self driving vehicles if they're in threat of an accident to quickly analyze the license plates on the vehicle around them and then crash into the one that either depending on the person who's driving the vehicle will be more monetarily beneficial to them or will, create less, harm into the world because the person you're crashing into, comes in at a lower income bracket or doesn't have a high profile job. And the algorithm is analyzing this all super fast, and a person program it. Now if you're going, there's no way that's happening. Oh my gosh. It's been happening, and it's happening. And I actually have a friend. He's a president of a Lutheran seminary up north. And, he is working with a coalition of biblical scholars to become an ethics board for AI. And he's doing this out of Europe because he's the one who taught me this stuff saying, man, there are people who don't know the bible who are algorithming our lives into their agenda.

[00:43:39.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:43:39.30] - Gregg Garner

So, like, science, computer programming, anything you want against you, don't you want a person with a biblical worldview? And then I guess the subsequent question is, do you think a person gets a biblical worldview going to church? And this is not the bag on the church, but I think, being a a pastor myself, we know that your congregation members are there for quickly and infrequently. Mhmm. And it is very difficult to think that the church, without expansive programming, can do much, especially for a young person

[00:44:12.19] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:44:12.80] - Gregg Garner

To get them to the place of biblical literacy where they're able to now take that biblical worldview and transform and reshape the industry that they'll work in in the future. Yeah. So I think we're gonna have to get a bit unselfish. We're gonna have to move away from our desire to experience self sufficiency and security on our own and become that people of faith that prioritize God's agenda and his word. And this is this is gonna require systematic change. Yeah. You know, part of what Christian institutions of higher education are gonna have to do is figure out how to help our students independent of government aid.

[00:44:57.90] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm. Yeah.

[00:44:58.19] - Gregg Garner

That's just a thing that we're gonna have to do because, we don't want we don't want our young people having to choose where they go to school merely based upon finances.

[00:45:16.30] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:45:16.69] - Gregg Garner

We want to be able to help students who have a calling

[00:45:21.40] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:45:21.90] - Gregg Garner

Go to our schools. And I'm so thankful for those institutions that have created endowments or created special scholarship programs, but we need more of them. And they need to be more readily available, and we need to help people understand that they exist. And if you don't have access to those kinds of resources, we need creative institutions who are able to, implement programming that would alleviate student from future debt. That also connects them to the skills based learning that will get them a job. And I know that at the institute, we tried our best to make that happen, and we have a pretty good track record of of experience that says it works.

[00:46:05.80] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah.

[00:46:06.80] - Gregg Garner

So we have a big job to do, but it really doesn't help if we don't look at the stats that prove putting your biblically illiterate kid into a collegiate institution of a secular nature is not going to result in them lighting up that school.

[00:46:29.19] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:46:29.59] - Gregg Garner

More than likely, seven times out of ten, they are going to find themselves extinguished by the darkness. Right. And I don't know why we would wanna put our kids into that.

[00:46:39.69] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. It's it's just this experiment that does not pay the dividends that I think people are hoping for. Greg, I think that was a great way of of of ending it here because we're we're asking, you know, we're acknowledging for these students. Hey. You're in a a world is changing. You're gonna have to change from what your parents did, but at the same time, pointing to our our own institution saying, we're gonna have to change too. Like, we're we also have to think hard and and creatively and biblically about how we can serve a people in this changing world, so that we can still do what God's called us God's called us to do. Thanks so much for this conversation, guys. I've I've had a great time, being able to talk with you guys. As always, thanks for checking out College Conversations. Be sure to, like and subscribe. If you are interested in hearing more about the Institute for GOD, check us out on the web at the institute for GOD dot e d u. Until next time, see you guys later.