Summary

The transcript discusses challenges faced by international students in theological education, emphasizing lack of resources and cultural barriers. President Gregg Garner, Jeff Sherrod, and Laurie Kagay highlight the importance of biblical literacy and critical thinking in studying the Bible. They address the need for sustainable transformation and genuine education for leaders and congregations in the developing world. The conversation stresses the importance of a hermeneutic approach to understanding the Bible and avoiding indoctrination. Lastly, the speakers discuss the benefits of a global perspective in education and invite engagement with a certification program on Christian practice.

S2E11: College Conversations Podcast - “Access & Equity: Reshaping Biblical Education Globally” (Transcript)

[00:00:10.80] - Jeff Sherrod

Hey, everyone, and welcome to College Conversations. My name is Jeff Sherrod. I'm here with Laurie Kagay.

[00:00:15.90] - Laurie Kagay

It’s me.

[00:00:17.00] - Jeff Sherrod

And president Gregg Garner. So in this episode, we're talking about international students, as it relates to theological education. Kinda talking about what are some of the challenges that international students face, what are ways that schools are serving them. There has certainly been a change, you know, over the last hundred somewhat years when it comes to, theological education in the developing world, you know, where most believers lived in the west, you know, a hundred years ago, and that's dramatically shifted. And along with that, theological education has shifted. Even for this podcast, this podcast does particularly well in Uganda, which is, I think, pretty awesome. But it just shows that even for a lot of our listeners, and we have a lot of at our school, we have a lot of, international percentage wise, we have a lot of students that come from an international context. And we're seeing more and more students who are interested in theological education, higher education even, because there's ministry to serve. So, Laurie, maybe you can just kind of start us off with some of the statistics statistics that you've seen. Like, where are we at with theological education? You know, what are some of the the issues that students are facing? And maybe we'll just kinda start there with what are some of the issues that students are facing.

[00:02:10.50] - Laurie Kagay

I think it's good to know, like, in the in the context of this podcast, we're mostly gonna talk about, international students learning from where they are because schools also sponsor students to come abroad and learn.

[00:02:25.09] - Gregg Garner

Learning where they are and learning remotely. Right?

[00:02:27.50] - Laurie Kagay

Learning, like, in their home country, I guess, is what I mean. Yeah.

[00:02:30.30] - Jeff Sherrod

So you all want learning in their home country where they go to a campus in their country. Do you mean that? Or you're talking about learning in their home country remotely from a Western school?

[00:02:40.00] - Laurie Kagay

I think it could be either one. As a whole, students, international learners, you know, in trying to engage in theological education have so many challenges against them. You know, some in a traditional age or whatever can get visas and can come study here in the west. We have not done that yet as an institution. But sometimes people hear international students, that's what they hear. I grew up in China I now study in the US.

[00:03:04.19] - Jeff Sherrod

One visa

[00:03:07.19] - Laurie Kagay

Maybe we'll be there someday. But, like, for now, we're talk talking about believers in the third world engaging theological education. What what, opportunities do they have? So, yeah, a little a little context, I think, First, about even just Christianity at large. So, like, Jeff prefaced, you know, in the early nineteen hundreds, 80% of the world's Christians lived in Europe, North America Europe and North America. A century later in, you know, 2000, 70% of Christians now reside in Africa, Asia, Latin America. So the shift of Christianity as a whole I mean, one writer, he said that the Christianization of Sub Saharan Africa, he thinks, is the largest religious change in human history. Kind of you know, even change in the faith development of the world at large. But a statistic that I reference, I I found it. And ever since, I haven't found a better one, so I kinda continue to say it. But that's it comes from the center of the study of global Christianity. They estimate that ninety five percent of Christian leaders globally, lack adequate theological education. So they define theological education, being on the formal side. So particularly pastors having access to theological education where they could earn an an undergraduate or a master's degree. 70% of the world's pastors are in independent congregations. And even in the west, those in independent congregations, meaning those not tied to denomination are known for much, like, looser standards on biblical education. So I I think there is an obvious lack. Yeah. Another guy I read was was noting specifically in Brazil, which is where he works, and he noted, like, if we were to catch up all of the pastors just to serve the current Christian population in Brazil, it would take us 40 years to catch up to today's needs for what Christians have just based upon the need of people who lack biblical theological education. So he's noting there's this many million believers in Brazil.

[00:05:21.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:05:21.39] - Laurie Kagay

If we say one in a hundred needs some sort of leader or guidance or or pastoral care on that regard, and only one in one hundred of them actually have access to training.

[00:05:33.69] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:05:34.00] - Laurie Kagay

He's like, it would take us forty years to catch up to today’s needs. In regards to Christian education.

[00:05:40.30] - Gregg Garner

Based upon the current

[00:05:42.80] - Laurie Kagay

The current models. Yeah. The current models and, like, what access is available.

[00:05:47.10] - Jeff Sherrod

Right. Because there there's there's the there's the availability, but then there's you know, people are coming from family situations, and sometimes they're being pulled by those. There's the financial concerns that international students sometimes have. They can't always afford.

[00:06:01.10] - Laurie Kagay

Right. Yeah. So I I wrote a a blog earlier this year just, like, noting, you know, ten major struggles faced by international learners who they want a theological education, but here's the things that kinda set them behind. A fun thing I found when researching this is we actually rank high, the Institute for GOD, on noting the concerns of third world learners because this has been something we've done from the start of our college. I mean, I know when I first started traveling abroad, as a student, we had DVDs and had, you know, things we were delivering, to Christians, to leaders in their community so they could catch up theologically. And that has continued to progress even alongside our school. So we we have been been in it in that way. But, yeah, some some struggles to note. One, just a lack of accessible educational institutions. Now that more people are doing things online, it is a little bit, you know, more available than it has been in the past. Where they used to be restricted by travel or even, family situation to just get to campus. But at the same time, in the third world, you're dealing with unstable Internet connectivity, a lack of power, period, a lack of, you know, devices to be able to log in on those ways, frequent power outages. A lot of times, thorough learners are doing much more physically demanding work, which is just wearing them out, period, to also then, stretch yourself mentally. There's obviously language barriers. There's even more of a time crunch with, just a lack of modern conveniences. So whether it's, you know, the lag in in time on public transport or things like cooking a meal, washing things in your home. You know, all that takes up more of their day than it does. In the west, likewise, community responsibilities. So, you know, caring for parents, caring for children, caring. There's just more of a communal community responsibility, I think, built into their culture, that can sometimes prevent them from finishing things on a deadline, things like that. Insufficient, you know, prior education. Another stat I read, it was like, of these of the the seventy percent of pastors in those independent churches. I think another, estimate was that 60% of them are functionally illiterate.

[00:08:34.29] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:08:35.20] - Laurie Kagay

So even of the leaders that’s been an issue that we've had even in admitting international students is that they show a form of a transcript. That you don't always exactly know how to read or what it stands for. And so you're trying to make sure that people are college ready

[00:08:51.89] - Jeff Sherrod

And learning material in that first year, which also can be a challenge. Yep.

[00:08:55.70] - Laurie Kagay

Right. Likewise, like limited technological skills. So Yeah. Just because they can maybe watch something or tune in on YouTube, can they also do, you know, figure out the system that's needed to submit assignments or toknow, these things? And then, obviously, financial constraints. How do they pay for this education? Concerns on a college level too, just considering how do we best serve believers in the third world. And  I think we've continued to to walk alongside our friends and ask get their feedback on what's working and what's not and continue to make it better, but it's also it is a it's a huge need. But then there's also I think the there's two sides or there's kind of an ongoing I wouldn't say there's a conversation because the two sides kinda just judge each other. But in essence, it's like, do you, do you value formal education? In which some people would say, yeah. If it's not formal, how do you even judge it? You know, it's subpar. The value isn't. It sorry. If it's not formal, it would be subpar. How do you actually value the quality of it? On the other side, people will say, the formality is too too much, too high. It doesn't address the needs they're actually dealing with, in the locations where they are. So that's also a point of, you know, contention or concern is this need is obvious, but how is it met? Is even college, like, the best way to meet it? Is the formality too high? If but if there's not some aspect of vetting the teaching and a process in place, how do you even judge progress, right. Or quality. So that’s kind of a summation of things.

[00:10:47.89] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Another maybe we can continue with the same kind of topic, but, Greg, I'm interested. Like, you've been doing, you know, international development work, theological education, developing world for almost 30 years. Right? Like, I mean, what what if you're thinking, like, from the time that you started doing this kind of work to to now, what kind of changes are you seeing with theological education? Are are you seeing a move towards formal education, or is there is the value of biblical education for church leaders becoming higher, or is it kinda what it's always been since you've, been starting?

[00:11:18.10] - Gregg Garner

I definitely think technology and the role it plays in education has contributed to a change in the last twenty years. The fact that a church could have volunteers or maybe even someone on staff have a Zoom class that meets every week, and they do some probably denominational curriculum with those, quote, unquote, students who tune in. It's definitely informal.

[00:11:50.10] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah.

[00:11:50.50] - Gregg Garner

They might feel it's formal because it's organized in the church. But when we speak about formal education, we're typically talking about an institution that is, first and foremost an educational institution

[00:12:01.89] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:12:02.60] - Gregg Garner

That has some kind of curricular scaffolding considerations to get a person from one place to another place.

[00:12:11.29] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:12:12.00] - Gregg Garner

Wherein an informal education, they aren't going to take any of those things into consideration. Instead, they're usually going to have a goal to transmit some kind of knowledge. So they're going to say, our goal in this bible study is to talk to you about soteriology or salvation. And we're they they'll call it a class. You meet on Zoom. The homework you do is devotional esque. Write write a prayer on this subject matter or interact with your the students on the discussion board and and talk about what you do on the day to day that expresses the joy of your salvation, whatever it is.

[00:12:50.79] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:12:51.60] - Gregg Garner

And I don't think these things are inherently bad. But if we are talking about biblically educating people on the international level, specifically in the developing world, the problem is going to be until we make some very paradigmatically shifting changes. The problem is going to be, resource allocation and the, capacity of the institution to, effectively teach what it is that perhaps they themselves may not be either qualified to do, have the information themselves to make happen, or, there's there's some kind of lag between what it is that they have received and they can give and where we're at now as human beings living in 2024. So when I look at what's happening in biblical education, and if we can focus on the developing world

[00:14:01.89] - Jeff Sherrod

And that's what we're most talking about.

[00:14:03.60] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. Gosh. Your people are are there's diploma mills all over the place. The diploma mill, if you don't know what that is, it's just an institution that doesn't have any other institutions who have vetted whether or not the educational effort is legitimate. But they have created a program. And as a result, usually, you'll receive some kind of printed out diploma or certificate that says you completed a certain thing. A lot of these certificates, specifically in East Africa, where I I have the most experience with these types of degree mills, you can get it in six months, attend something once a week, and people are proud of those certificates.

[00:14:44.20] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah. That's sometimes what we're receiving from applicants.

[00:14:46.79] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:14:47.10] - Laurie Kagay

And we're like, we don't know even how to find this place online or, like, how do we vet even the certificate they're showing us as a part of a transfer.

[00:14:55.10] - Jeff Sherrod

Like, in in a lot of these cultures that we work in, they're very status oriented.

[00:14:59.00] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah.

[00:14:59.20] - Jeff Sherrod

You know? So having some of these degrees, you know, it does mean something

[00:15:03.00] - Gregg Garner

Yeah.

[00:15:03.20] - Jeff Sherrod

To them. Yeah.

[00:15:03.79] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. And if if you're not familiar with cultural orientations, the the contrast would be an achievement orientation

[00:15:11.79] - Laurie Kagay

Mhmm.

[00:15:12.10] - Gregg Garner

Versus a status orientation. So, yeah, being status oriented, they do want to have that status elevated and going through a program, and then in six months getting a degree. Like, I I've I've met many people who are like, yeah. I just got my theological degree, Finish that.

[00:15:28.89] - Laurie Kagay

Mhmm.

[00:15:29.20] - Gregg Garner

And from where we sit, in our world, we recognize the at least the amount of time and work and effort that goes into achieving those kinds of degrees. And in our culture, we barely pay attention to anybody unless they have a terminal degree. Yeah.

[00:15:49.00] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah.

[00:15:49.39] - Gregg Garner

But we're talking about in in East Africa, a guy who goes to a six months course, the way they they treat it would be similar to how we treat somebody who got a PhD.

[00:16:00.79] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:01.70] - Gregg Garner

And and that's interesting. I I don't I I think there's some positives and some negatives to the whole scenario. The positive is it's it's great that people are taking the time to organize themselves in some fashion to deliver biblical teaching in such a way people can go through the process, learning the Bible. Now as to determine the quality of that education, Jesus would let us know that there's a certain kind of fruit that has to emerge out of that kind of education. And when I look at the condition of churches, specifically in the rural parts of East Africa, it you you not only can sense the high levels of biblical literacy, but as you mentioned earlier, just even altogether, illiteracy is really characterizing the congregations that are even going to receive whatever word is. But here's the big thing to me, the cultural element. Culturally, I'm not sure people care too much about what it is theologians and biblical scholars care about in the west. I think in the east, what they care about is the power that comes on the other side of being in a relationship with God and the kind of transformative power that could usually, what they want is to to go from poor to rich.

[00:17:36.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:17:36.90] - Gregg Garner

They wanna go from being nobody to somebody. And the preachers and the teachers that do well in that environment are the ones who are essentially giving people that trajectory. And it's not inherently bad, but it does appeal to the felt need of the people at large. Secularly, the people would say, I want a job. Yeah. But for Christians religiously, what they would say is I want to be blessed.

[00:18:07.50] - Laurie Kagay

Right.

[00:18:07.90] - Gregg Garner

I believe both of them want the same result, and that is to have a sufficient income to be able to take care of their basic needs and and, to flourish along those lines. So when I when I consider the situation, I think when I was younger, I thought that the the religious distinction, would be a qualitative difference that, would give us a better chance at impacting that educational, scope of ministry that churches were trying to implement. But as I learned through experience, if it doesn't lead to that trajectory towards escaping poverty, it's it's not something that people care to participate in. Even though they'll have strung over their doorposts in their school's knowledge is power, it feels like they've really focused on the power part.

[00:19:11.09] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:19:11.50] - Gregg Garner

Like, they want to know something. So there so you'll hear a lot of, like, if Ugandans are listening here, I've heard from many of my Ugandan friends that so often when they go to church, the Bible teachers are teaching with this kind of anointing that's giving them revelations. And they now speak their revelation to the congregation. Thing about the revelation is that, in my opinion, nobody can test the revelation up against scripture. Very few can. I'm not gonna say nobody. Very few can because they themselves don't know how to read the Bible. Right. And for many Christians, not just in East Africa, but in the developing world, the Bible is more of a magical document than it is literature. In fact, to hear someone like me say it's literature could put me in a heretical, category for some people in the developing world. I'll never forget, this pastor from Sudan. He was a refugee here in Nashville. I got to take him to Kenya, and we we actually this was during the time when South Sudan was forming. And we actually met with the the government, the parliament for South Sudan and its new government. We had a really great time. He came back and he heard because he had heard me teaching the bible in in Kenya. And he was like, I want you to teach the bible. So I started teaching the bible. It was our first lesson. And I was looking at the book of Ephesians with him. And I I let him know that the bible he had, which was an annotated bible, I wanted him to know the difference between the annotations and the actual scriptures themselves. And so I said, these annotations are not inspired by God. These annotations are the opinions of the publishers.

[00:20:54.20] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:20:55.09] - Gregg Garner

These are the scriptures. So when we look at the Bible Jesus had, which was in Ephesians, but if we're to look at Deuteronomy. He's not gonna have any of these annotations. Not only that, he's not gonna have these verse divisions. He's not gonna have these sub headers and subtitles on there. And he was listening, and I and I was, like, getting excited because I'm trying to teach him how to see through the muck. And really get to the the main, meal, which is the actual word rather you guys know how it is. When people don't know how to study the Bible, they study everything but the Bible.

[00:21:30.59] - Jeff Sherrod

That's right.

[00:21:31.09] - Gregg Garner

They they look at commentaries. They look at bible encyclopedias. They go online. They ask Chat GPT. Yeah. They just because they don't know how to approach scripture. So as I was telling you this, I felt so inspired, but he he ends up closing his Bible. He looks at me and goes, you're a man of God, and I appreciate you. But I cannot allow you to teach me because I believe that the entire Bible is the word of God.

[00:21:52.79] - Jeff Sherrod

Oh, yeah.

[00:21:53.29] - Gregg Garner

And I was like, I think it is too and so it was like, but you have to get of covers of the Bible. Therefore, that was part of the thing. And and, I mean, that was my experience the first time I went to the Himalayas in India and went with a a very indigenous group. They had never seen a Westerner before and had to go up into the mountains. I mean, this is this is quite a trek. And it was actually Nepali refugees that I was meeting with. And, I went to their study. They're they're just solemn, quiet. It it's they're they're all sitting there almost in a meditative state.

[00:22:27.50] - Gregg Garner

They invite me up. It's my turn to speak. I do have a translator at the point. I don't know if Nepali. And so I start talking, and I'm using my bible. I have my bible in hand, paper bible at the time. And, there comes a point where I wanna talk about it now. So I put the bible on the ground. The whole room gasps. And and I can't help but note the gasp. So I grab my bible, and then you hear them breathe. And you I think you guys know me. I put the bible back down on the ground, and they gasp again. And the translator goes, brother, don't put the word of God on the ground. And that's where we're at.

[00:23:07.40] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Mhmm.

[00:23:08.50] - Gregg Garner

So the the the the magic of the bible, the power of teaching, everybody's looking for those signs and wonders

[00:23:20.40] - Laurie Kagay

Mhmm.

[00:23:21.29] - Gregg Garner

That give them the sense that, god is present, and they can access the miracles that would alleviate them from elements of their suffering. However, when I also talk to these teachers and pastors and ministers, I can ask them basic questions such as, are you tired? And they're like, yeah. I'm worn out. You can ask them questions like, do you see transformation happening in the people that's sustainable, or are they in and out and kind of fickle? In and out kind of fickle. It's not sustainable. I'm so glad you're witnessing miracles. Are there always miracles? No. Have you ever pretended to slay someone in the spirit when you actually push them on the ground? And, yes, I have. Had these are things they're telling me because they're being honest in those moments. Have you have you, declared someone was healed even though you didn't know they were healed? Well, yes. By faith. I mean, yes. I get you're saying it's by faith, but did you actually know they were healed, or did you just declare? Oh, I just declared it. I didn't know. Did you tell the whole congregation they were healed? Yes. I was declaring in faith. Were they did you have someone who was in fact not healed even after you said that? Yes. Many times. Yeah. Are you rich? No. But I'm doing better than I was. Is anyone in your congregation experiencing the kind of blessing that you've been preaching about? Sometimes a couple, was it a result of what you're preaching or a result of what they were already doing? Was it a result of what all they're they're already doing? See, one of the one of the things about Christianity is it teaches morals. When you're when you're looking at, for example, in India and somebody has a job, typically in the Indian market in the city, the job you have is gonna be pretty pretty decent in terms of wage. But you blow your wage when you smoke, when you drink. When you disco. Like. This is all right now. Kinds of things and whatever income you had is spent. Now you become a Christian. You don't smoke. You don't drink. You don't disco. And, instead, you pay your tithe. But that's gonna be ten percent, whereas the smoking, drinking, discos of of most workers in those cities is gonna be maybe thirty to forty percent.

[00:25:32.59] - Jeff Sherrod

Oh, yeah.

[00:25:33.00] - Gregg Garner

So now they spend ten for a tithe. They have another ten for offering. They still have twenty. And now they're like, yes. God has blessed me. I'm doing so much better. And I agree with them. Having that kind of temperament where they could discipline themselves away from those things that are just wasting. That's a blessing. But to act like something supernatural is happening is is sometimes unfair to everybody else who doesn't know why it's working for one person and why it's not working for them. But what I love about teaching the Bible is that this is the bread that comes from heaven. This is this is something that God wanted to make accessible for everyone to eat. Jeremiah thirty one thirty one to thirty four, that new covenant that no one would have to say to their neighbor know the Lord, but they would all know the Lord for themselves. That this is the goal of what any ministerial community should have for its people. So when I talk about that paradigmatic shift to me, one of the things that has to happen in the developing world is is the believers who do know God and are sensitive to the Holy Spirit. They may have high levels of biblical literacy, but that's not gonna stop them from experiencing God and through his grace. That does not disqualify them. There's maybe some things about God that they they don't know because it's by revelation, and the scripture gives that kind of revelation. However, I think that those congregations, there's gonna need to be some the kind of love and maturity that leads to a sacrificial effort on their part to ensure that the next generation of leadership in their church gets effective biblical education. So let's take a rural community in, let's say, the Philippines. And they're they're on the rural area, and they're a church, and they recognize that their pastor's been great. He he he taught himself to read. He taught himself to read the bible. He's been basically a disciple of Rick Warren through the purpose driven church book, and that's what he's done in his whole life. But they have these youth, and there's a few youth that are very promising. At that point, that church, as poor as they are, needs to come together and say, let's collect the resources so that we can get this kid through school. Yeah. We can get them a biblical education, a legitimate one.

[00:27:50.09] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:27:50.50] - Gregg Garner

One where when they get that word of God written on their heart, they're not gonna use it to go make themselves famous. They're not gonna use it to go do something that is going to make their name great, but they are going to return to our community, and they're gonna teach God's word. Yeah. Like, you you you take two dozen communities like that in the Philippines who all decide to do that. You now have two dozen legitimate Bible teachers. They come back and that next generation is going to experience the revelation of the word of God, not just the revelation of men. And they're gonna be empowered in such a way with the word of God that when another preacher does preach and it's not according to the word, they will have the confidence to say, hey. That's not biblical.

[00:28:35.29] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah. They'll know the difference.

[00:28:36.59] - Gregg Garner

They'll know the difference. And, I think right now, the models that we have, especially when Westerners get involved, is that Westerners, have that savior complex too often. And so they believe they have to be the ones who are doing the ministry and doing the teaching. Right. And the people on the other side just sit there and receive. I I I, in my experience, most of the people even sitting there or listening, if you're from the west, this is their opportunity to get connected to you. And eventually, they're gonna make the ask.

[00:29:10.79] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:29:10.90] - Gregg Garner

And the ask is gonna be it'll range from, my kids have school fees. Can you help me? Hey. I'm sick and in the hospital. Can you pay this for me? Like, they they are willing to endure your teaching. You might think you're the world's best bible teacher, and that's why all of these people are in your Zoom meeting. But, really, they are there to make a connection so that when things get hard for them, they can reach out to you. And then you feel like you're the white savior that that, made the legitimate connection, and now you feel obligated. Right. One of my, I was maybe twenty two years old. I was in East Africa, and I had been teaching with a community there, and they were very thankful. And this man comes to me, and he presents to me his son. His son at this point was about seventeen, eighteen years old. He was finishing high school, going to college, and he presents his son to me as my son. And I'm like, this is weird. I'm literally almost this guy's age. He's my son. Son came with some chickens. I also got some chickens. And, at the time, I didn't know the cultural implications. I was just like, okay. There's some cultural thing that's happening, and I'm not familiar with it. But over the next few months, I started getting letters from my son asking for school fees, asking for help with transportation needs, asking for help with, maybe a connection for a job. That ceremony and that experience that the pastor was able to do was prioritized by his status and the fact that he could now connect with me, the westerner. And I I this was this was his way of transforming the trajectory of his family. So this goes back to my initial point. I really do think that for most people who are in an economically challenging situation, Christianity in is most attractive when it tells them you can go from poor to rich.

[00:31:16.79] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:31:17.09] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah.

[00:31:17.40] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. I mean, that's why, like, prosperity gospel has just exploded, right, in the in the developing world. One of the things that Laurie and I were talking about before we got started was just what what's the role of institutions, maybe even denominations, to help with some of this? Like, you know, like, there's been maybe because there's so much need in the developing world for teaching or for just pastoral care, it it it can seem like we're gonna lower we're gonna give more independent control even in within denominations sometimes, to churches so that they can just meet the needs of people that are there in front of them, which on one sense, we know it’s not working

[00:31:55.59] - Gregg Garner

That's good. That's how I do. In our country it's not working because we're dying.

[00:32:01.09] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:32:01.40] - Gregg Garner

The church is dying. Christian schools are dying. And we can kid ourselves and say it's working in the developing world. But even remember we had, a missionary from Uganda visit us. The other day on campus one of the things she told us, because she's involved in, biblical education. Yeah. Theological education. Theological education went through people. One of the things that she wanted to make known immediately is that it's her position that they don't know the Bible at all, That none of the Christian leaders out there and their idea of who God is and what the bible means is is not even close to what we would understand Christianity to be. Like, she was pretty

[00:32:38.29] - Laurie Kagay

She was impassioned about it. Gave us a a image. She was like, have you ever had cake in Uganda? And Gregg and I are like, yes. And she goes, and you know how you can take the frosting just right off the cake? You know, you can Yeah. You can, in essence, just take the lid off, which here in the states, we can do. You know, it's sticky, and it sticks

[00:33:07.00] - Gregg Garner

And the anthropological term we have it for is syncretism.

[00:33:10.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:33:10.20] - Gregg Garner

So there's a lot of syncretism, and that is where you take aspects of the bible, terminology, passages, and then you take your cultural axioms and you combine them and you syncretize them to something or that's most often heretical.

[00:33:28.70] - Laurie Kagay

Like a basic survey, they'll be like, yes. I'm a Christian.

[00:33:31.00] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. So the people who are on the field, the people who are involved, even the people in the churches, Like, I'm I'm so thankful to have, an international audience listening to us. And if you're gone Ugandan out there, we when we when we show up, we're actually taking a trip out there this summer. Love to meet you. You should reach out. But let me tell you, even you guys know that in your church congregations that so often you have a preacher preaching, and that preacher is doing their absolute best to engage the congregation in such a way that it culturally makes sense. What I mean by that is there there there has to be certain elements that emerge throughout the course of the sermon so that people feel like something happened.

[00:34:26.40] - Jeff Sherrod

Yep.

[00:34:26.80] - Gregg Garner

So usually it starts with the the the preacher gets up there quietly. They talk about what they're going to do with this scripture and the special teaching they're gonna have, this revelation that God's given them. And then at a certain point, they they start shouting. But if they're and and interpreters are interpreter shouting, people in the congregation, half of them are falling asleep. Now they're kinda waking up. And, they have their responses. Amen. Hallelujah. Glory. And this this the show commences. The band comes back up. People are singing. And I think we could all agree the experience, the event, the cultural elements in it. Feels great. It was it was a great experience. But at the end, can you legitimately say, I have increased in my biblical literacy? Like, I and biblical literacy doesn't mean you learn more of what someone else is saying about the Bible. Biblical literacy means you yourself are able to look at a text and see what the text is saying independent of anyone else. And we can all look at the same passage separately.

[00:35:47.80] - Jeff Sherrod

Yep.

[00:35:48.50] - Gregg Garner

And then at the end, come together, share our interpretation, and then test our approach by the hermeneutic we utilize. So for us, utilizing the inductive hermeneutic, we pay careful attention to the words themselves. So we're we're making a lot of observations about the actual words in the text. So to to give an example, you take Matthew chapter seven, enter by the narrow gate for broad is a way, and and wide is a path that leads to destruction and many go by it and narrow as the gate and small as the way it leads to life, you ever find it. How many churches are going to use that scripture to talk about salvation and to talk about the Broadway leading to hell and the narrow way leading to heaven? Well, with an actual hermeneutic, with actual biblical literacy, you could interject and say, wait a second. The text doesn't say heaven or hell.

[00:36:39.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:36:40.30] - Gregg Garner

Someone would say it's implied. And you go where? Because usually an implication has some kind of context clue. Well, destruction is hell. Find me the verse that says destruction is hell. Well, the the way that leads to life, that's heaven. Find me the verse that says the way that leads to life is heaven, and they won't be able to do it. And at that point, they're just gonna be cultural angry and gonna find other people who just agree with them and agree to get upset with us. But biblical scholars who know how to read, we pay attention to the words. Yeah. We're actually looking at the words. We're going, okay. That that I this there's there's lots of verses that will talk about heaven or talk about help. This is not one of them. So what is this actually saying? What are we actually learning in this text? So you the three of us going away and studying the text on our own, we could even keep each other accountable

[00:37:28.19] - Laurie Kagay

Mhmm.

[00:37:28.59] - Gregg Garner

Through our hermeneutic we  could say things, well, did you did you know that, socioculturally at the time for for Jesus to talk about broadways and narrow ways, he he was likely referencing the creation of the Roman roads and the fact that this introduced, commerce in in a way unprecedented for them. And everybody was feeling like that was the solution to their lives. And they were getting engaged in the kind of commerce and trade with other countries that for some people is doing well, but for others, we're creating debts and tragedy even in Jesus' story on the road to Jericho. That's a border town.

[00:38:06.59] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:38:06.90] - Gregg Garner

Like, this guy over here on that road, he gets beat up by robbers, and nobody's flinching at the concept because they know those are supposed to be dangerous. But then there's a narrow way. What's the narrow way? Well, these are the footpaths in the rural villages.

[00:38:16.90] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:38:17.90] - Gregg Garner

So we we would all vibe with that kind of conversation because that's part of our hermeneutic. Part of our hermeneutic has to look at archaeology and his story history and geography and sociocultural considerations.

[00:38:29.90] - Jeff Sherrod

Had to make sense for the people who heard this originally.

[00:38:33.50] - Gregg Garner

Because it wasn't written to us. Right. Right. It was written to a specific audience that we don't know, so we make them the implied audience.

[00:38:40.80] - Jeff Sherrod

Yep.

[00:38:41.40] - Gregg Garner

And we have to now receive it as the implied audience and then make sense of it in our day. But people don't have this kind of hermeneutic. They don't even know that this is a way of thinking about it, especially if the Bible is a magic book and it's not literature.

[00:38:56.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:38:57.19] - Gregg Garner

And it it that that point right there is going to make the biggest difference in developing world communities. Once you have and and I really think it's gonna come through the young young people, the the the youthful generation. The older ones will will try to, but I've I've met the older ones who even want this, but they get stuck in their systems, and they don't wanna fight the the powers of the culture and the elders in their church. So they just compromise. But there there are younger ones that are even listening to us who are like, I really wanna learn the word. I wanna learn it for myself. I do wanna do what you guys are saying. I too wanna sit at the table and have a conversation and say, yeah, I looked at the text and I read it this way, and this is how I see it. Remember in Jesus' conversation, he's like, how do you read it? But I think in a lot of these rural congregations, it's not about how I read it. It's not about how you read it. It's how the pastor read it. And if if you agree with them, you're good. If you don't, you're evil.

[00:39:54.00] - Laurie Kagay

He's anointed.

[00:39:54.80] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. Don't mess with the Lord's anointed.

[00:39:56.19] - Laurie Kagay

Right.

[00:39:56.59] - Gregg Garner

So this is this is something that I think if it starts happening in these developing world communities where you get young people now capable of really learning a a biblical hermeneutic transformation will come, and it won't come like magic. It'll be hard work.

[00:40:16.09] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Right.

[00:40:16.69] - Gregg Garner

But it but it'll come. And back to the other thing that you wanna say, Jeff, I just wanna respond to that. Like, I I do think that one of the issues with post secondary education for international students is we we still treat it like they may be a student, but they're a customer. And they're buying our product. And we gave them the product. They have the product now buy. And I think that there's a lack of vision, which includes a strategy for how it is that we bring about transformative biblical education into these developing world communities. And I think churches and universities do better partnering together. That's been one of my big. Big things talking on this podcast. They do better partnering together because they can then do all the follow-up, and the and the strategic initiatives can actually extend beyond the, in the course of things, very short lifetime that a student would be at a post secondary institution for biblical learning.

[00:41:15.59] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Because if if a school is looking at this and like, man, this is a market that is massive that I can, you know, tap into. We can get more students from. Not necessarily by getting more more students, but if it they're knee like you said, like, the question we have only in

[00:41:31.00] - Gregg Garner

the end, they're like, we we we had two thousand international students this last year, and then our schools, like, we had five thousand. There's a revival. Not necessarily.

[00:41:38.09] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Because I think the thing that we're trying to say is I mean, with the questions I would have, how many of them pass classes? How many of them

[00:41:46.50] - Gregg Garner

And we know that by experience. We've been teaching international students like Laurie mentioned since the onset of our school. So it's 2004. So twenty years now.

[00:41:55.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:41:56.00] - Gregg Garner

And, it's only what? This last year? Yeah. We had a course where every international student finished it and passed.

[00:42:03.69] - Jeff Sherrod

We have a program, and we've had a program for a lot of years. We have a program that focuses it's it's geared towards, international students. In the developing world. And, yeah, this was the first year every single student passed the class. So this is I think we changed it.

[00:42:16.59] - Gregg Garner

There was a huge win. We had to we we actually did surveys with the international community to ask them what needed to change. And a lot of the things that you you, brought up statistically we had to attend to like college readiness.

[00:42:31.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:42:31.40] - Gregg Garner

Because of the the lack of setup in their education or, I mean, so much of what you read contributed. And we made those changes. And I'm so thankful.

[00:42:41.00] - Jeff Sherrod

That we had to have passed a way. This is not just adding another student like any other student. This is us intentionally thinking through how do we make books available, how do we make Internet, you know, Internet capability even on some of the places that we work.

[00:42:56.40] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. We we had to literally go in and engineer the infrastructure so that students could go gather at that place and

[00:43:04.30] - Laurie Kagay

And find new tools for us to do things like transcripts of lectures and

[00:43:08.30] - Gregg Garner

Yeah.

[00:43:08.59] - Laurie Kagay

Relistening, like, which is very useful.

[00:43:11.09] - Gregg Garner

That are translated so they can read it in their their, native tongue as well. Like, a lot of work. And then even the communication effort itself. Having to speak cross culturally and then to find the the types of examples that make sense in the developing world. Like, it it's it's a lot

[00:43:29.80] - Jeff Sherrod

\It’s a lot of work. But the thing that I think that we've heard consistently is that when students are often doing this for the first time, they're like, I just didn't know you could read a couple verses and get so much. Get so much out of it. It's like, we're we're like I feel like I'm reading the Bible itself, and I'm like, yeah, man. That's like that's what it's about. I I I like the term, you know, biblical literacy. I think it gives us a good frame. You know? Because when we think about literacy, sometimes we think about, about, alright. I can read a book, but, you know, there's multiple forms of literacy. There's digital literacy. There's information literacy. So if someone is digitally literate, it means that on their own, they know how to navigate a computer or navigate their phone. They know how to use the tools on it in appropriate way to get the things that they need. Same thing with biblical literacy. Right? They can they can take this Bible, and they know how to use it to be able to read it appropriately to get what they what they need out of it.

[00:44:19.69] - Gregg Garner

Otherwise, I think if if students aren't taught that, then they're indoctrinated.

[00:44:25.80] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:44:26.09] - Gregg Garner

And when you indoctrinate people, you most often create divisive people who are argumentative based upon either their correlation with the majority who they believe think like them, or they they have these deep convictions, which actually have no biblical rooting, but nonetheless, they act according to them with the kind of conviction that it comes from God. And I think maybe someone listening to us could be like, that wouldn't happen. That's not the way people are. But like, we have to remember, Jesus came to his own and they didn't receive him.

[00:45:03.90] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:45:04.90] - Gregg Garner

Their their inability to see who he was was a result of how they came to see the world. And they didn't come to see the world by having their eyes opened by the wisdom of God through scripture. Their eyes were opened by their culture and the religion that they had so much so that when Jesus didn't fit the bill for who they thought he should be as messianic David, they're like, crucify him. Same thing with Paul the apostle. Having a righteousness of his own, he said. Being a Hebrew born amongst Hebrews, being somebody who's part of the tribe of Benjamin and trained up as a Pharisee, he didn't have what it was that allowed him to see Jesus.

[00:45:45.40] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:45:45.69] - Gregg Garner

And so not only did he not see him, but he persecuted him.

[00:45:49.00] - Laurie Kagay

Right.

[00:45:50.40] - Gregg Garner

So I do think that when a person comes into biblical literacy, there's a peace that settles in because now they can listen to a new thought and a new idea. How do you read it? Just like Jesus, ask and listen, and then pass that thought or that teaching through the filter of the scriptures they've learned to read and look at it themselves. I'm often teaching in such a way where I know I have to bring something fresh, to a group of people. Otherwise, if I bring up something they already think they know, they tune me out before I even start because that's how people are in church. So when I bring up something fresh, I've noticed that I can bring up something so fresh or so unfamiliar to them that people start thumbing through their scriptures while I'm talking. They're actually not listening to me. They're now having to investigate what's in the Bible because they're actually listening to someone who's using the Bible. And it's so unfamiliar to them because I'm not just throwing out the same five scriptures everyone else does, that it's a little annoying for me because I'm going, okay, this person obviously has a problem with what I'm saying, and they're having to investigate it for themselves in the scripture, but now they're no longer listening to what I'm saying. So now they're gonna have a problem with me that's not me because they're not listening to me. They have a problem with themselves because they've never read what it is that I'm talking about, and they don't know how to read it. Yeah. They think reading is reading. That's why Jesus said, seeing, they don't see.

[00:47:20.40] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. That's right

[00:47:21.00] - Gregg Garner

Hearing, they don't hear. Perceiving, they don't understand. There has to be a change.

[00:47:25.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Or even the question that you ask the Pharisees, Yeah. I think that one of the things I just wanted to say as we're, you know, talking about this, that the program that we're referring to for the institute, we have a certification on, Christian of Christian practice.

[00:47:44.90] - Gregg Garner

Yeah.

[00:47:45.59] - Jeff Sherrod

It is a twelve unit, certifications aimed at, international students, but it's a bridge, program that you can transfer all units into an associate's, degree, and then you can transfer all of those units into a bachelor's degree. So it kinda helps stagger the program so it doesn't feel so overwhelming at the front end. But it is like it is taught, you know, weekly. Gregg's been teaching it. You know, it's it's so that if you guys are interested, you could head to the website and check more more about that

[00:48:11.90] - Laurie Kagay

Not exclusively for international learners. No. But it is geared towards them and even with some of their needs

[00:48:18.40] - Gregg Garner

Which are the concerns because we have some US learners who are involved in the class, and they're getting to hang out with people from Asia and, Africa and Latin America, and it's a lot fun.

[00:48:30.69] - Laurie Kagay

That's why I was gonna ask what you guys thought were some great benefits even for students in the West being in a classroom with global learners. I looked at our stats even, like, for us as a college, nearly a quarter of our students are international, which is pretty high. For other Bible schools, they're, like, usually under ten percent. So a quarter of our

[00:48:52.50] - Gregg Garner

Not in the international course. You're talking about in our college?

[00:48:55.19] - Laurie Kagay

In our college as a whole. So, yeah, some of the students have have gone on to, try to finish or attempt to finish the associates and even the bachelor's degree. So, yeah, that's a college wide stat. But, like, yeah, what do you guys see as the benefits even for learners in the US of kinda having a global classroom in that way?

[00:49:14.40] - Jeff Sherrod

I mean, for our school, like, you know, this goes back to our mission. One of the things that we want students to to have is is a global consciousness, like, to be aware of what's happening in the world because God's aware of what's happening in the world, and that's part of our mission being Abraham's kids, to be a blessing to the nation. So I think that and I've seen instances where students are in discussion forum. With students around the world. And, you know, you can sometimes you can read when you're reading a story, especially in the gospels. You're like, you know, you put yourself in certain characters, and then maybe you see someone else in an international context. Like, oh, that person sees them as a character I would never see someone as. You know? Like, story that comes to mind is, like, even the the, you know, the good Samaritan story. Like, there's been studies that people from the west tend to see themselves as the good Samaritan, and people from the east and developing world, they see themselves as the guy in the ditch. And you're like, you know, you learn things along those lines. But I also just think it helps like, Christianity is always translation. It's always about taking this message and making it understandable to someone someone else. We've been doing this from the time that Jesus was here. And I think that it just gives students a really great practice early on even while they're in school, to practice that and at least be aware of how someone else is understanding.

[00:50:28.09] - Laurie Kagay

Their articulation even of concepts to people who are not like me.

[00:50:31.40] - Jeff Sherrod

Because I think that it's you know, if we're always so high context with all of our communication, because I understand you completely, you understand me completely, even though that's not true. When you find someone else, it it forces you to say, alright. By this, I mean and then you have to figure out whether you understand what you're about to say. You know?

[00:50:48.69] - Gregg Garner

And I think this could be a good transition for us into our next episode with respect to diversity. Because that is very much alive in our school, specifically with the context of adding international learners. Mhmm.

[00:51:04.80] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Thanks, everybody. That was a great talk. Like always, we'd love to hear from you guys. So make sure you like, make sure you subscribe, leave comments, for us. We'd love to interact with you guys, and we'll see you guys next week.