Summary: Gregg Garner, Jeff Sherrod, Laurie Kagay and Benjamin Reese from College Conversations delve into the challenges and criticisms surrounding short term missions in America, focusing on issues such as lack of lasting impact and perpetuation of harmful stereotypes. They emphasize the importance of expertise, financial integrity, and a holistic approach to measuring success in missions work. They discuss the need for clear rules and oversight to prevent misuse of funds, as well as genuine commitment and intentionality in serving others. The conversation highlights the impact of strategic donations and the importance of understanding the mission model to attract funding. Overall, they express confidence in their work rooted in God's guidance and emphasize the need for sustainable, community-focused Christian missions.

S2E20: College Conversations Podcast - “Reactions to the State of Short Term Missions” (Transcript)

[00:00:10.90] - Jeff Sherrod

Hey, everyone! And welcome back to College Conversations, a podcast about all things related to Christian higher education. My name is Jeff Sherrod. I'm joined with Laurie Kagay, Benjamin Reese, and the president of the Institute for GOD, Mr. Gregg Garner. Okay. So for today's, podcast, what we're talking about broadly is mission, short term missions, and the state of short term mission, in America, maybe in the west, if we wanna be a little bit more broad. Maybe if I can just kinda set up the issue, and then we'll talk about a little bit of the exercise here. So one of the things that we've seen, and Laurie pointed this out when we were doing we as an organization, we do short term mission trips.

[00:00:46.70] - Laurie Kagay

Mhmm.

[00:00:48.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Hopefully, we'll get into how we might do them different. I'm gonna pause. We do short term mission trips. But we were looking at maybe some other organizations that were doing them prior to this summer just to kinda look to see where and how long in comps for cost, that kind of stuff. And one of the things that she noticed was like, man, there's just a lot less organizations doing this type of work than there was when you've looked at this in years past. And so that caused us to kind of look into this even more and just kinda note that there's this growing dissatisfaction. It's probably been there for a while, but a growing dissatisfaction, in the church about short term missions, but maybe even about missions in general, where people are kind of going back. Often, millennials are looking at some of these things and saying like, man, we all did this. This was kind of a rite of passage when we were evangelical in high school, but what a waste, you know, that kinda thing. And for a number of reasons, people might be saying this. So one of the things that we're gonna do is we're gonna have a defender of short term missions, Mr. Gregg Garner. You believe in them, right, with your whole heart and your soul.

[00:01:50.04] - Gregg Garner

Wow.

[00:01:52.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Okay. No. We'll we'll nuance this. We'll nuance this more. But what we're gonna do for this exercise is that we're gonna at least bring up some of the common criticisms, that are about mission that people have. It doesn't just have to be about short term mission, but that's kinda where we're focusing on, for this. And we'll bring up some of the criticisms on our side, Laurie, Ben, me, and we're gonna talk to Gregg about this and just kinda see, like, see if we can kinda get a little bit of a discussion going. I should preface by saying we are all, like, into mission. Right? So we're not that's we're we're mission people.

[00:02:23.69] - Laurie Kagay

We are.

[00:02:24.19] - Jeff Sherrod

But at the same time, it's helpful. We wanna be able to answer some of the questions that maybe people have and bring up criticisms for ways that we can respond better, to people who might be confused about the whole enterprise. Got it? Everyone clear? Okay. So I'm gonna, maybe I'll kinda get us started here. Yeah. One of the things that again, what we've seen is, like, a lot of evangelicals, millennial type people who took a lot of mission trips, they look back on them as like, yeah. That was a weird time. We did this in high school. But now they're looking as like one of the big things that they say is that there was no lasting change. There was no lasting change for themselves. There was no lasting change in the places that they went. And what their exercise was really just an exercise in going and pretending if we're sharing the gospel or doing these things, we're gonna have God's kingdom is gonna come. We can bring all this energy into a particular moment and focus it for a period of time and have a big impact. So I think that's maybe one of the things is that they just don't do anything. What what do you think?

[00:03:25.00] - Gregg Garner

I wouldn't put it past them that that was their experience, the way in which short term missions are often facilitated. I wouldn't doubt, if they probably didn't have any lasting impact either on themselves or in the area that they were at, and that's really unfortunate. I don't think that has to be the case, but I have gone on mission trips where if I wasn't intrinsically motivated to see something else happen, it would have been that for me as well. So it’s, and I think the issue is that you have people facilitating missions who have no knowledge of how to do so. They are tour guides or, merely chaperones who have figured out a system that lets people, yeah, make appearances in the developing world doing a couple things that have that sense of, legitimacy attached to them. We built an orphanage. We poured the foundations for a hospital. Whatever it is, those things feel very real. But if you don't have, the capacity within the on the ground organization to sustain those kinds of things, the criticism remains legitimate, doesn't it, That we didn't do anything that lasted. So, yeah, it's it's unfortunate that that's where people are coming from. And I would not question their observation. I would say that's been your experience. On the other hand, I would say that would never be an experience that someone would have going with us or people who know how to facilitate. Short term missions.

[00:05:15.39] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, because facilitation I mean, you’ve seen even changes wholesale on how facilitation has worked since you've been doing this. Like, when when probably when you started, there was more missions organizations doing this.

[00:05:25.89] - Gregg Garner

Oh yeah.

[00:05:26.39] - Jeff Sherrod

And whether maybe some of them were better than others. That's beside the point. But then there was this real big movement where churches kind of…

[00:05:35.80] - Gregg Garner

Yeah, so in the nineties, it was, quote, unquote, “para-church” organizations. That did most of the missions work. Sometimes they were, like, denominational sending boards and and things like that. But there was a lot of space for the para-church organization. In the two thousands, especially after 9/11, the church started recognizing, wow. So many of our young people are going on mission with these para-church organizations, and they're not, like, they're being won over by these para-church organizations and their mission. And we want them to love our church, and we want them to be a part of our church. And so the the church used the move that only the church could, and they tapped into their missions funding so that now if a student went with a parent church organization, let's say they'd have to pay three thousand dollars…

[00:06:21.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Yep.

[00:06:21.69] - Gregg Garner

The church, the church now pays for half your trip with the missions funding, fifteen hundred. Now you're only responsible for fifteen hundred. You just gotta go with the church. The problem is the church doesn't have on staff the effective facilitators who know what they're doing and know how to make things happen. What they have is like a retired missionary or somebody who was on the field for a little bit. The person need not be qualified by any objective means other than the fact they have some six degrees of Kevin Bacon connection to to missions. Right. And, like, they're running the missions department now of the church. So now you've got all these kids who who feel like with the parent church organizations, because they had such great experiences, they're gonna have those with their churches. So they start becoming leaders because they did it with the para-church organization for that. But as leaders, they imposter syndrome hits them real quick. They don't know how to give answers. They don't know how to facilitate what they experience, and then they age out of it. And they go get their jobs, and, the feelings wear off. And now they're paying off school debt.

[00:07:23.80] - Jeff Sherrod

And if they can't understand it, it can turn into cynicism.

[00:07:26.19] - Gregg Garner

Oh yeah.

[00:07:26.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. It's just like, what was I doing?

[00:07:28.60] - Gregg Garner

Yeah, what what was I doing? Yeah. And it it's kinda predictable. You know? Because I think if a young person's gonna be around a knowledgeable older person, the knowledgeable older person's gonna be like, “dude, you don't know what you're doing. Be quiet. Learn. Stop acting like you know what you're doing.”

[00:07:44.89] - Jeff Sherrod

In almost every field. Right? In any field.

[00:07:47.60] - Gregg Garner

Yep. Any field. In any field.

[00:07:50.69] - Jeff Sherrod

Except ministry.

[00:07:52.10] - Gregg Garner

Except ministry, yeah. It's like, here comes the next, I don't know, Jimmy Swagger. Billy Billy Graham or Jimmy

[00:08:00.89] - Jeff Sherrod

Jimmy Swagger is the last person I expect you to come.

[00:08:02.89] - Gregg Garner

I don’t know, I picked one. Billy Graham or Rob Bell. I don't know. Here they come. Gotta, you know, fear the Lord's anointed. I have no idea what people are thinking, but it it's just it's just problematic. Like, those so the church did that, but then the church couldn't sustain their own programming and their own everything else. And now you've got nobody going on mission trips because the parent church organizations couldn't afford themselves because their revenue was based upon participation. So now they have no participation because they can't beat the selling point of the denomination and the church organization. So they close down, and a lot of them become the church pastors…

[00:08:39.89] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:08:40.60] - Gregg Garner

Of those organizations. So then they start trying to do their church thing, but they're they can't because as a para-church organization, you're a lot more free. Now you're part of the denominational structure, and your hands are tied.

[00:08:53.10] - Jeff Sherrod

That freedom can relate. They can work with different denominations. They can work with different believers suddenly. Like, context that they might have had for a long time, but, woah. I can't work with those people anymore. Yeah.

[00:09:03.60] - Jeff Sherrod

Alright. Let me let me try another one here, and then you guys

[00:09:05.39] - Laurie Kagay

I’ll get one.

[00:09:06.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah go ahead.

[00:09:07.00] - Laurie Kagay

So an other another argument is that short term missions, you know, is one, playing out of white savior complex. So I think two Instagram accounts that kinda went viral. The first one I remember seeing was savior Barbie, in which they just had this little Barbie doll, and they would have her in these African landscapes. And they'd do hashtags, like, not qualified, but called. Or, you know, they kinda do these parody scenarios about single wife

[00:09:36.60] - Jeff Sherrod

Was it a parody account?

[00:09:37.89] - Laurie Kagay

It was, yeah. They were definitely poking fun, but also, I think, raising awareness that there may be some issues on this front. Maybe. A darker one, I would say, would be, it was called No White Saviors. And they really went hard, into this, just, kind of doing exposing, white missionaries who went in really with the guise of, being able to help where they weren't actually qualified to do so, whether that was, you know Medical. Medical. Primarily, HBO now did a documentary on that scenario, I think, called Savior Complex as well. So I think, you know, there's been some even, like, canceling in that way. Like, the short term mission movement has gone through somewhat of a canceling because of this critique that this is just, like I said, like a playing out of a white savior complex or you think you can save everyone. Why don't you just send money and help the leaders there, and benefit their own communities? What would you say to that?

[00:10:42.89] - Gregg Garner

There’s a lot to say to that. First of all, I don't think it's a bad thing to help people see what isn't working.

[00:10:51.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:10:52.20] - Gregg Garner

We've known that the way in which missions are being done in the West is not effective. And, what I mean by that is not that it's not getting immediate results. It seems to be getting immediate results, but sustainable results.

[00:11:08.39] - Benjamin Reese

Right.

[00:11:09.29] - Gregg Garner

There's no evidence for that. We we're not seeing the kind of transformation that, a typical metric by any society would be able to highlight and say Christian presence has made a difference in this community. Because our metrics are funny and fabricated. I don't know how to say it. Our metrics are like, how many salvations? And while we prize people coming to know Jesus as lord, we also know that a lot of these organizations are loosey goosey about how they count those raised hands. I have been on trips where I was there with a organization for multiple weeks, and multiple teams would come through. And the organization would have this the different teams going to the same locations, doing the same altar call with the same kids.

[00:12:00.10] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:12:00.50] - Gregg Garner

And then the translators just telling the kids to raise their hand even though they raised their hand last week. Not for a sincere salvation count, but to make the visiting team feel like they did something successful. And, yeah, you like, if you're like, gosh. How did you stomach all that? I didn't. I protested and and got and got disinvited to to being a part of it. But these things happen.

[00:12:26.70] - Benjamin Reese

Yeah. I think I saw, at one point, they had tabulated all of the confirmed, like, salvations over a ten year period. And they had, like, saved the whole population of Africa ten times over. It's, like, something where the numbers were not matching reality.

[00:12:41.50] - Gregg Garner

Like, they was they're, like, ten million over the total population of Kenya in ten years. So but, like so we have these metrics that determine our success, but they're not anything anyone else would highlight as good. Like like, how many jobs have we created? How many how many communities now have electricity? How many communities have water? How many schools are independently operating, sustainable with a curriculum that's creating students who go on to higher education? I mean, these are metrics. That that I want our organization to use, that we do use. But when we do that, we're a social gospel people. We're not we're not, like, the real gospel. We have problems. But this critique is being done by, like, I don't know, homeschool parents. I'm sorry. That was, that was bad. My point is, like, people who lack exposure.

[00:13:45.79] - Benjamin Reese

Right.

[00:13:47.39] - Gregg Garner

To the variety of modalities that exist out there in the space of missions. And it there is a there's a harmful criticism with the white savior complex, like, that I think people need to be aware of, that there are people who create problems. So, like, why not just send money to the people there? You know, to his day, to this day, twenty five years in doing this, I have not met a person with financial integrity in all of these countries. Now I can also say I've met so many Godly people and so many God fearing people and people who who trust God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength. But to expect a person to to live in an environment of complete poverty, and then all of a sudden, master money is a ridiculous notion.

[0014:45.32] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah.

[00:14:46.58] - Gregg Garner

It takes time. I know the guys that I work with with money in the developing world who are part of our teams, like, it took ten years before we could even get to the place where we could have an honest exchange about money. Now and I get there are people who are listening to this to be like, no. That takes too long. You did something wrong. You could have found the right people. These people educated in this way. No no no. Like, they're the studies will show, like, the phenomenon of the brain drain. Anytime you have someone who's highly educated, specifically with respect to Western education, they know English, They know, the Western economics, and they know how to navigate all of that. They often, migrate. And they either they either migrate to the big city and just work in the big city, but usually, they migrate to the mother city. So, like, if they're in Kenya, they're gonna migrate to London. And if, they get in the US lottery, they're gonna find themselves in Atlanta. Like, these are these are facts. This is what happens with people who have that kind of education. Plus, on top of that, we know that that having an intellect and capacity without integrity is is a problem. And integrity is not something you can work for. It's a gift that comes from God as a result of his goodness and being in his grace. So you you can't just muster up the discipline to exhibit financial integrity. Like, you have to really humble yourself. And there are hard situations that people don't understand. Imagine you, because it's not just about your family. You have relatives. You have nieces and nephews and cousins and aunts and uncles and grandparents, and they're all poor too. But now you're connected. You've got a good job. You're running with these these whites who every time they come in, they gotta go and have an experience. So they gotta do the safari. They gotta do the restaurant. They gotta do the cultural, theater. Whatever it is, you know, it's a once in a lifetime thing as idea. Not mad at anybody for that. But now you're you're having all this exposure. But at the same time, the amount of money you just paid for that soda is the same amount of money that could buy the, malaria cure that you know is going to cerebrally, negatively, detrimentally impact your niece, who as a result will be different for the whole rest of her life. And and now you're just having to watch, the the the these these white guys go, "this soda's so cheap. It's only a dollar."

[00:17:17.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. With the ease at which they spend it.

[00:17:19.70] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. And and that's not an easy thing. That, like, there's a lot that has to happen inside of you. And, yeah, we could all say, well, then we shouldn't do that, but that's not the way the world works. There's so much gray-

[00:17:31.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:17:31.50] - Gregg Garner

-when it comes to culture and our our understanding of what's right and wrong, even what what the category I often try to, introduce, which is neutral. People just don't know how to think through it. So you look at, like, a white savior complex kinda thing. And, I mean, I've had my experiences myself. And in this occasion, the lady who gave her a white savior solution wasn't even white. She was actually an African American lady. But we went to this community in Mexico, and we were in the village. And, you're you're we're walking into the the house. Right? And on the way in, you can see just a pile of clothes. They're dirty, like, completely dirty. You can see dust everywhere. The whole place has problems. And, they there's you could just tell there's no water here. So we get in, and they've got a little propane stove going. They're, stewing the beans, you know, so they're just sitting there, heated. And, we do what we normally do. We visit. We sing songs. We encourage the family, give testimonies. If we notice it's the right time to share this good news of Christ with them, we do. Or if they're family that already knows the Lord, we're just visiting them, we encourage them. But then after the visit, the lady comes up to me and she says she says, you know, “I'm really feeling the spirit of the Lord here to meet a need.” And I said, “I'm glad you said that. This family really needs water.” There's a hookup that's about eight hundred feet from here, and it costs about five dollars a linear foot for us to attach so they can have running water in here. It'll get rid of the clothes in the front. It allows them to clean things. She's like, “that's not how the Lord is leading me. I need to buy them a refrigerator.” I was like, what? And and she was like, “just to see those beans just sitting out in the open where flies are exposed to them.” And, like so first of all, the lady doesn't understand. That's the culture. That's what they do with their beans. Like, for twenty four hour period. Like not just that day. Like and she's like, she's like, and “I just saw the flies. And I couldn't imagine my kids having to live life without a refrigerator.” I said, well, you know, the refrigerator will actually cost more than it costs for us to get the the water, but the water will do more for her and her family and everybody else. She's like, “that's not what the Lord's leading me to do. So either you're gonna get her fridge or I'm not doing anything.” And I said, well, I guess we're not doing anything. She's like, so you would rather them not have a refrigerator than to humble yourself and receive what the holy spirit is trying to do?” I said, “Well, with all due respect, I'm not sure it's the holy spirit wanting to get her a fridge.” And then, of course, she gets mad. The pastor gets mad. Everybody's mad at me, and they're like, we're just gonna get them a fridge without you because you don't control them. I'm like, gosh. This is where it's gone now in that moment. But to me, that's, like, the embodiment of that white savior complex. It's, like, complete ignorance in action to remedy your own problems in a in a third world context. You're like, this would be my problem, so it must be their problem.

[00:20:45.40] - Jeff Sherrod

And your only authority is that you have money.

[00:20:48.20] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. And the and the holy spirit.

[00:20:49.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Of course. The holy spirit, yeah.

[00:20:51.00] - Gregg Garner

Which… seems a lot like money. But it's nauseating, which is why we spend so much time training teams before we even go. And exposing teams and making them understand certain things before they even get on the field. So to me, I think I'm glad that the exposure is happening. I think I've often said when I take people on mission trips, like, I hope this mission trip goes so well you never do one again, or it goes so well the rest of your life is characterized by helping people in need in this way. Because I feel like that's what makes a great trip. Like, you really expose them. But but I think, yeah, it's just I don't see it as an issue. I think people do ignorance needs exposed. And, I just wouldn't want someone ignorant to expose it. You know what I mean? Could you imagine? Like, we had this one kid. He he went with us, to Africa some years ago. I mean, he wore the same sweatpants the entire time.

[00:21:54.40] - Benjamin Reese

Oh yeah, that was my trip, yeah.

[00:21:56.00] - Gregg Garner

And, like, I would hate for him to do the expose. Because of his perception of things.

[00:22:04.40] - Jeff Sherrod

Like expose on the state of missions?

[00:22:07.29] - Gregg Garner

On just the white savior complex.

[00:22:08.59] - Jeff Sherrod

Okay. Yeah.

[00:22:09.20] - Gregg Garner

Like for example, as soon as we got to the Chicago airport on the way back, he got on the phone with a family member, and he just started going, “dude, you would never believe it. We were sleeping out with the wild animals!” We never slept out with the wild animals. Like, none of that happened. Were there wild animals out there? Yeah. Like, not like safari animals. You know? But it's just he's just exaggerating in his own so sometimes you can have people whose perception of reality is not informed by reality. It's Like, I think Like, there are people who have legitimate capacity that recognize, you know, like, for example, you go do a medical clinic, and you don't have the right kind of, tools in that area and you have hundreds of people come out, you can't feel good about half dosing people when they need a full cycled regimen for otherwise, the very thing you're trying to come against comes back worse.

[00:23:14.00] - Benjamin Reese

Yeah. Right.

[00:23:14.79] - Gregg Garner

Like, experts know these things. Non experts go, well, something's better than nothing. Which is not true.

[00:23:21.90] - Laurie Kagay

Not true.

[00:23:22.20] - Gregg Garner

Not always true, but that's a hard thing for people to discipline themselves into saying, well, we're not gonna do anything because something would be worse than doing nothing. And you have to have a level of expertise. So if these organizations are exposing that, I think that's great. Like I said, I would wanna make sure the ones doing the exposing have some legitimacy to their their pedigree for assuming that role. But it there was something you said at the very end, Laurie, that, you there was kind of an add on to it. I'm trying to remember what you said at the end.

[00:23:58.59] - Laurie Kagay

I think I brought up, like, wouldn't it be better to just send money and help people there? But you addressed that as well.

[00:24:04.20] - Gregg Garner

Yeah, sending money to the people and help you there. You can't count on your money going where you want it to go. You just can't. The temptation's too high. It's it's just too much for them. It's just a hard task to ask someone who's poor. And if you're like, well, they're not poor. If they're not, their family is. Like, someone is around them. Like, and it's just really hard for them to negotiate that without you having implemented a bunch of internal controls that, have to be audited. And you you have to have very respecting integris people. So, I would bet you send your money, like, statistically, unfortunately, you're looking at just about twelve to fifteen percent of your money actually on a good organization getting where you want it to go. There is a book that did these stats. It's the book's probably about twenty years old now. But, in that book, it it highlighted that for most development organizations, including missions organizations, ninety percent of the finances are tied up in consultant fees. Anyways. So you're just you're just talking consultant could be the safari company that that you're you're going with.

[00:25:19.50] - Laurie Kagay

And other studies that have also said, like, no continent has received as much aid as Africa. Saharan Africa. Right? But the poverty levels are not changing.

[00:25:27.70] - Gregg Garner

Well, it's the only country that has gone down in the last thirty years in its poverty level. So, yeah, if you apply the metrics, you again, you can't say that which goes to the point of the criticism. Like, what are you doing? But I'm to me, I'm kind of smirking a little bit because I've been against these types of mission trips the whole time.

[00:25:48.09] - Jeff Sherrod

Which is why I was trying to tell you she goes, like, Gregg's the sport of short term missions.

[00:25:53.70] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. Like, I think it's been a problem, and I think it's a total problem to have in the same way, we would never want a surgeon who wasn't skilled in the craft operating offer operating on us. We we shouldn't have missionaries out there who aren't skilled in the craft of, whether we would call it apostolic ministry or missions. Like, you need people who understand the craft.

[00:26:21.20] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about money then for a little bit. Let's say that you have one of the things that career missionaries talk about is, you know, perpetual underfunding. They're there for a long time. They don't get enough support. And then they are expected to host a team maybe. Yeah. And they know how much work and money just came into this short term team coming. Yeah. So maybe a church, you know, has let's just come up with numbers, making stuff up. Let's say they have a ten thousand dollar missions budget on the year, but that short term mission that's outside that is gonna be forty thousand dollars that they're gonna send to these kids there. You know, like, where does is the money just simply better spent supporting people there that are either there long term or partners that are in the region?

[00:27:02.90] - Gregg Garner

I just need to be smarter about how we use those resources. Because if that forty thousand dollars is going towards twenty kids who of which ninety percent of them have a call to missions and serving God, what a great investment into those ninety percent of those kids. That's a well spent forty grand. But if that forty grand is going towards twenty kids who are, getting get a T-shirt and bracelets at the end and tell people they went on a trip later, probably not a good use of the funds. I really do think that people are getting more comfortable with it, but it's just what it is. Like, we we gotta get to the place where we recognize some people don't wanna serve the Lord  in missions, but they do want to, travel to exotic places. So they would much rather do a cruise and see these other countries.

[00:28:00.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:28:00.40] - Gregg Garner

And get the tourist experience of the poverty and and be shielded, and feel like they did something really great because they're because everybody is a monetary critic. Right? It's like, I'm gonna spend a thousand dollars to do a cruise, and they're gonna have, like, five star meals on there for me, twenty four hour lounges and bars and unlimited this, unlimited that, and then they're gonna hook up all these things for me to, and I get to sleep in nice quarters. Like, would I rather do that or spend five thousand dollars and sleep on the ground? And I think people need to make up their mind.

[00:28:31.40] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:28:31.79] - Gregg Garner

They need to decide, do you wanna go on vacation, or do you wanna go serve the Lord? I know in the nineties, I remember reading the book, what was it called? Vacations with a Mission, or Vacations with a Purpose, I think, the book was called. And it was just trying to highlight that you can do missions on your vacation.

[00:28:49.70] - Benjamin Reese

Oh, wow. It's pro

[00:28:51.00] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. Vacations with a Purpose. Like, it's time because they were trying to really highlight the tourism industry, and I think that's harmful as well. But yeah. So the money if there's ten thousand dollars and the missionaries there, the missionaries are complaining about money. If a missionary is is doing that, they need a consultant. They need someone to help them narrow the scope of what it is that they're trying to do. Because in my opinion, unless you have, like, no support whatsoever, if you're supported by a church sending body or a mission board or even your your own friend group, you should be able to master your finances in the developing world with, respect to the cost. Now that's very contrasted if all of a sudden the person's, a missionary to Western Germany. It changes. That's totally different. We're in a totally different thing. I'm talking about the developing world scenarios. The person needs help refining their mission. I've met missionaries who complain about that. Right? But then they give away all their money every day. Like, anybody who comes to their property. Like, I've met missionaries. That was their philosophy. Anybody who asked us, we give it to them, and the Lord provides. In the same breath, they start complaining about how they don't have anything. It's unbelievable. So some of these guys, they just it's one of those things where we got, like, really excited about saying that we've got a lot of people doing something, but nobody could actually do anything. What it reminds me of is I was involved in this merger with, actually, ministries. And the merger had several hundred, leaders that were part of the other organization, and they those leaders had their own groups. And they they were the other organization boasted in them. You know? That's, like, ten thousand people that are being impacted by all this. So I was like, okay. We'll see. And as I as I vetted it, audited it, and actually looked for what's legitimate, what what it that gets one thing just to tell everybody, we're doing a bunch of missions. We got a bunch of leaders. We got a bunch of people. Versus, let's find the people who are doing something that means something.

[00:30:56.09] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:30:57.00] - Gregg Garner

Well when that by the time that was done, it went from, like, five hundred some groups down to, like, just hovering around a hundred. So it was about twenty percent of what anybody estimated. So I would think that that's probably what happened to the church at large with missionaries even. They're just like missionaries, they even feel like we have to show baptisms. We have to show salvations. We have to show all this stuff so everybody likes us because that's gonna get us more money. And then we're living in the midst of all this poverty, and we're trying to educate our children. We live out in a rural area, and we can't homeschool because we don't have any time. And what we don't wanna send them to boarding school.

[00:31:34.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:31:34.90] - Gregg Garner

So we're trying to figure this out, and then we're trying to to meet with people to raise funding. And I've gotta plan my furlough so I can go on a like, that paradigm it doesn't work.

[00:31:45.59] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:31:46.40] - Gregg Garner

And it's discouraging to people. And, I think I just think there needs to be an overhaul with the way in which people do missions. But it feels hard. I was meeting with another college president, I don't know, a couple months ago, and he was telling me about how the college is starting to get into missions.

[00:32:04.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:32:04.70] - Gregg Garner

He says it's really easy. They just jump on Zoom, and they just start teaching these leaders in these other countries. And they have a translator, and they just teach them the gospel. And they're super excited about it. Right? But they don't understand that these guys will sit in your class, every one of your classes for the next five years. They'll be your best students. They'll do everything because they are looking for their way out. And they're gonna be patient for it, and they're gonna figure out how it is they could negotiate out of this relationship some salvation. And I'm not talking about in Christ. I'm talking about you're gonna pay for their kids' schools. You're going to help them when they have a medical emergency. You're going to help them get a vehicle so they can advance in their station in life. These are the real things

[00:32:53.29] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:32:53.90] - Gregg Garner

That we're having to deal with, and it can sound bad and and and negative if this is not what you do. To me, that's just reality, and it would probably I'd be like that too if I was in their position. And I'd be trying to figure out what's the best way to help my family and what's the best way to advance our community's cause. But, there’s a way that Jesus taught that we see modeled in Paul apostle that, just a lot of people don't know because they don't do what he says.

[00:33:20.20] - Benjamin Reese

Right.

[00:33:21.00] - Gregg Garner

They call, “Lord Lord, don't do what he says.” They do what everybody else said should be done in missions. So as far as the money thing goes, it just all really depends. It really depends. Like, we're about to get involved in an initiative. It'll cost about fifty grand, but it's gonna create twenty four jobs. And in creating twenty four jobs, these twenty four jobs, eighteen of those jobs are going to, uplift eighteen different rural communities, specifically attending to what Kenya calls the boy child problem. So it’s essentially gonna give, young boys things to do so they're not, caught up in the troublesome woes that are now characterizing them in Kenya. And, there's room for growth in it. So that investment there doesn't touch anybody who’s coming from the west. But it's also creating metrics that I don't think the church may appreciate. But I think anybody looking at the development of a society would go, thank you so much.

[00:34:29.09] - Laurie Kagay

They should.

[00:34:30.90] - Gregg Garner

Those are really good things. But here's the deal. Without without our guys knowing what to do on the facilitation end, this wouldn't have even happened.

[00:34:40.30] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:34:41.19] - Gregg Garner

So I'm not trying to say that there are times let me let me speak in the affirmative. There are times when putting the the finances into a project or a program exclusively run by people on the ground is your best foot forward. Most of the time, the grand majority of time, you need people who know what's going on to be the bridge for accountability even to, save someone from themselves.

[00:35:13.09] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:35:14.00] - Gregg Garner

Because the temptation is hard. Like, let me let me think it's okay. So, like, when I am hanging out with my rural friends in, like, place like Africa, they don't they don't have too many desserts. Right? So, like, for me, I really like a good dessert. Like, Laurie makes this pistachio cake, that just, even right now

[00:35:40.00] - Laurie Kagay

You need a finisher. You need a finisher.

[00:35:42.59] - Gregg Garner

So, like, you I can be out with my friends in Africa and, that pistachio cake show up. And I have I want that so bad. But, you know, they're so free. They don't care about it. They they don't want it at all. They have no eyes for it. They have no desire for it. They've never tasted it. They and and they haven't developed the palate for it.

[00:36:03.90] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:36:04.50] - Gregg Garner

It’s not part of their appetite. In the same way, if ten thousand dollars has to pass through your hands to make sure that a project is accomplished with integrity. You, as an American citizen, having grown up the way that you did, you have no real appetite to put that ten thousand dollars in your pocket for your family at the risk of being an embezzler and…

[00:36:33.19] - Jeff Sherrod

Loosing all my friends, losing all my jobs. Right.

[00:36:34.50] - Gregg Garner

You're not you're not doing that. Okay? That ten thousand dollars is, you know, a portion of your household income. It’s not it's not everything.

[00:36:45.69] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:36:45.80] - Laurie Kagay

You have no appetite to do that. In contrast, the African guys that maybe are in leadership that we're working with, that ten thousand dollars is essentially gonna be five times more cash than they've ever held in their entire life. They're going to have the temptation to get creative about it. Like, how can they earn out of that ten thousand? So, like, they'll do things like, charge you, transportation fees that weren't related to paying for transportation, but were related to their time. And then it'll be an inflated price, but they're not gonna tell you that. They're just gonna keep it. They’re and then they’ll get the person writing the receipt to write it for a hundred dollars even though it was eighty five.

[00:37:30.80] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:37:31.00] - Gregg Garner

Because they're gonna split the fifteen as a tip with, and they’re figuring all this out because they're like, this is our chance.

[00:37:38.80] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:37:39.40] - Gregg Garner

But the the appetite is there, like, the temptation, like, the the possibility, like, there's a craving. They need this.

[00:37:45.90] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:37:46.59] - Gregg Garner

Where, like, for you, you don't. Maybe my cake thing works, maybe it doesn’t. But that’s like a human reality. That we have to recognize and and help each other with. It's just it's not fair to put them in situations where they they can't even use a rule, you know, like a clear rule. Give them a clear rule. And the clear rule can't be just don't steal. People get very creative about what that looks like. The clear rules have to have to be pronounced. If anybody you're related to is involved in this transaction, you're not allowed to carry out the transaction.

[00:38:25.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:38:25.40] - Gregg Garner

There has to be two witnesses. You have to sign this form that shows that. There has to be a picture of the funds being exchanged. Like, you and sometimes you have to be very specific so it creates the accountability, and then you have to hold that on record.

[00:38:40.80] - Jeff Sherrod

It's a service to them. Like, we we we do these kind of financial constraints even, you know, for any business and nonprofit ourselves. And it's a service for everyone that's involved because we don't want anyone in a moment of weakness. Even for us to be, like, when we you know?

[00:38:54.90] - Gregg Garner

But it's so funny because organizations will trust their third world, developing world liaison associates even after you met them just for a little bit. And they'll and they don't ask questions. Like, it's I remember the the one of the first times I got involved with a guy in Kenya. He was living in a small dung hut, like, tiny. It's all family, super poor. We came. And then that year, I had supported kids going to school, like, eight kids going to school through the organization. But when we came back the next year, he had a big house. So I asked him straightforward, like, how did you get the money for the big house? He goes, we had some funds. I go, but you were living in nothing, and now you got this big house. He goes, God made a way. He's speaking real cryptic. I now know he took some of the money that was supposed to be going to those kids to go to his house because to him, that was like a service fee.

[00:39:55.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:39:55.19] - Gregg Garner

Right. It's part of what God did to bless. He still took care of the kids. He just negotiated. So I found out later, like, if their school fees were, let's say, a thousand shillings. Like, he negotiated to pay seven hundred so he could keep three hundred. So he just kept so it indeed cost a thousand, but is it his fault that he saved the three hundred? You know? So, like, real creative ways of stealing. But people don't make sense of this stuff. They're they just come back the next year. They're like, oh, look. He's got a house. God bless them. Yes. God indeed blessed them. This is so great. God's such a blessed God. Rather than seeing through the the reality of the human condition or seeing into the reality of the human condition that we need help overcoming our temptations. Like, lead us not into temptation. Like, lead us away from that temptation is another way of saying that. Like, I don't wanna be put in a situation where I'm having to test my human will up against my appetite.

[00:40:52.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm. Mhmm.

[00:40:53.69] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. But people live in, like, this ideal I used to call it missionary la la land. Do you remember that?

[00:40:59.69] - Laurie Kagay

I remember that. Yeah.

[00:41:00.80] - Gregg Garner

La la land. Missionary la la land where it's like everything's

[00:41:04.50] - Jeff Sherrod

These are the best people. I've never met anyone more kind, and everybody's the best.

[00:41:08.40] - Laurie Kagay

Everyone's smiling.

[00:41:10.69] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. And they all they all know the lord better. They’re just all kinds of great things, which, you know, on many levels, they're amazing.

[00:41:18.90] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:41:19.50] - Gregg Garner

But they're not perfect no more than any of us are.

[00:41:22.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. I'm sure we could keep on going. I think that we've kind of answered some of the at least the major criticisms that we've kinda seen. I think that, hopefully, people that are listening to this too, we're not just responding to them. We're also saying, hey. There's a place to do mission well. Like, this is still part of a development. We see this model. Even Gregg mentioned himself, like, Jesus sends out disciples for a period of time. He has them come back and report on the things that they're doing. You know, I'm not saying that's exactly synonymous with short term mission, but I am saying that there are experiences that students can learn abroad that if and I think that this is a really helpful way of thinking about it. For students that are like, they're this is what they wanna do. You know, like, I have this as part of my vocation. I'm interested in this.

[00:42:07.00] - Gregg Garner

And the church, I think the church should be evaluating that. They should be doing interviews and saying, if we're gonna put our resources towards, these kids going on these trips, let's find out how serious they are. For example, if like, if your church had a scholarship program to help out a student going to college and you knew that they wanted to go to medical school, if they weren't serious about it, why would you put the money towards it?

[00:42:32.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:42:32.90] - Gregg Garner

So you would at least interview and validate and legitimize through some some system of proofs that says, yeah, this person really wants to do this, but we don't do that. We’re just like…

[00:42:43.69] - Jeff Sherrod

Every kid gets subsidized half their trip by the church. No disadvantage.

[00:42:48.30] - Gregg Garner

And We even use it as an evangelical opportunity. We're like, well, this kid's not really close to the Lord. Going on this trip will make him better

[00:42:52.90] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:42:54.30] - Gregg Garner

So we’ll pay for this salvation. We don't say that, but that's what we're hoping for.

[00:42:59.80] - Jeff Sherrod

We hope they all come back better. Hope they all like, some magic happens.

[00:43:02.59] - Gregg Garner

And and to me at that point, like, I don't mind doing trips like that. I've done trips like that where I've said, okay, guys. Let's just let's just highlight that this trip is not about anyone else. This is about you guys. Okay? This is about your development in the Lord. You're gonna be blessing some people through some minimal activity. This is about you. So let's be honest with ourselves, and I think God will bless that. I found that a lot of people have a hard time doing that.

[00:43:25.09] - Benjamin Reese

Mhmm.

[00:43:25.40] - Gregg Garner

They wanna pretend it's about everybody else rather than it'd be about them. But the people who are like, it's fine being about me, like, I don't mind. In fact, this is more comfortable to me. This makes it a little easier. They end up having a really great time.

[00:43:37.19] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:43:37.90] - Gregg Garner

And and sometimes say, I never wanna do that again, which is a plus for me.

[00:43:42.30] - Benjamin Reese

Right.

[00:43:42.69] - Gregg Garner

Or they say, I wanna do that again, and I wanna go deeper. So it's a mess, I would say, at large, but I'm kinda glad that things are slowing down. Because it'll make room for the experts. For people who've got, the curated skill sets to be able to lead these trips and and make differences. And I hope the metrics change. I hope we can start posting at large the metrics or pay attention to the right metrics. Like, I wanna be a part of an organization that's building communities. Like, you are the light of the world. You are the city set on a hill that can't be hidden. Like, if our lights to shine and to show those good works so people glorify the father in heaven, that doesn't just mean, like, we're on stages with lights on us proclaiming the gospel. That means we're creating model communities where people are thriving. Education's happening for kids. Health care's happening for families. The infrastructure is developing. Roads are being built. There there's employment that's increasing. The local economy is finding a buzz to it. They’re getting the attention of the government at large. Like, these are things that our ministry does. That more ministries could be doing, and, really, they just gotta get back to the Bible.

[00:44:56.19] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Definitely. And and there's been some, like, you know, standardization when it comes to community development work as a whole. People are starting to be like, hey. This is a metric for success in community development circles. But when it comes to, like, Christian mission, they're like, do whatever you want. You know? And I think that's just some, you know, standards to be like, hey. This is like you're saying, like, if we could get together—I don't know how this works out—but, you know, if people would get together and say, like, hey. This is what would be an effective mission, or these are some of the outcomes that you should see.

[00:45:26.50] - Gregg Garner

It’s just not gonna happen at large until people decide to pay attention to experts, and that means we're gonna have to have people doing the research

[00:45:34.30] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:45:34.69] - Gregg Garner

And like, helping folks understand the data and the the millions of dollars wasted by good people trying to do good things in the world by funding organizations that have no vision for sustainability and have no idea how to actually achieve the the product goal that they dream about.

[00:45:53.90] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:45:54.19] - Gregg Garner

And, it’s just it's a lot of hard work.

[00:45:58.00] - Jeff Sherrod

It is. And it's not for everybody.

[00:46:00.00] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. That's the thing. Like, I remember in the in the nineties, that was the big thing. Like, everybody's a missionary.

[00:46:05.80] - Jeff Sherrod

Right. Everybody's a missionary. Everybody needs to go.

[00:46:07.90] - Gregg Garner

And it's just not the case. Like, I get, like, we're affluent westerners, and you wanna vacation to wherever and do whatever. I don't feel… just do your vacation. But also remember that there are some of us who are not just vacationing. I mean, we’re on mission. We're trying to to bring light into a dark world, and we do need help. And I think the generosity of people is tremendous when it come when it's put in the right place, like the impact it makes.

[00:46:37.19] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:46:37.90] - Gregg Garner

Like, some of the donors I know who've who've given, like, for example, one of our donors, his his brother went on a trip with us recently, and he he gave his brother it was, I don't know, it was, like, eight grand. And what we did with that eight grand was we bought the technology for different leaders to be in communication, with just consistent communication. So, essentially, it's a smartphone with bundles, but the the phone itself can get them on the the whole Google suite.

[00:47:10.59] - Jeff Sherrod

Mhmm.

[00:47:10.80] - Gregg Garner

They can interact. I mean, that right there has transformed the lives of fourteen different families. Like that that money spent to get those phones, to onboard them on how to use the phones, to get them the little bundles so that the airtime to make happen now has them advancing even in their private work lives, but also in their ministerial efforts.

[00:47:39.19] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah.

[00:47:39.50] - Gregg Garner

They're much more efficient. So that that those like, generosity helps

[00:47:46.09] - Jeff Sherrod

Absolutely.

[00:47:46.69] - Gregg Garner

So much. But I know that when people don't understand the model, they don't know how to give to it. And and that becomes really complex. I think that's it's a big reason why our ministry had to become so entrepreneurial is because nobody was gonna fund anything they couldn't understand.

[00:48:03.19] - Benjamin Reese

Right.

[00:48:03.59] - Gregg Garner

Which is how a lot of great innovations take place. Right? Nobody will fund it until they make sense of it. I think we're getting to the place as a missions organization where we're gonna make sense to people. Like, we haven't made sense to people, and now we're gonna start making sense to people because of these criticisms. And then they're gonna go, well, really? Like, what do they do? How are they creating those jobs? How are they changing industry? Why do they spend time with those legal representatives and accountants? And why are they meeting with the government? And what's going on with all of this? They just it just seems like social gospel, secular humanism. And it's like, no, ladies and gentlemen. We are proclaiming the lordship of Jesus.

[00:48:40.90] - Laurie Kagay

That’s right.

[00:48:41.19] - Gregg Garner

And advancement of the kingdom of God. And you've gotta get, it's like a leaven that's just like a yeast hidden in a lump. Right? It is this thing that in Paul's vision is gonna become all in all. It's going to permeate all the institutions that we know, and it starts by salting it. And so you don't just because the institutions that you view we're participating with or cooperating with or working alongside of are secular, don't imagine that we're not salt in that. Because this is our calling. This is who we're supposed to be. We're not supposed to be creating, you know, these homogeneous, institutions that are are independently supported by foreign strands of the same DNA. Like, I don't know. The metaphor broke down real bad. My point is, we've got a wonderful calling in Christ to accomplish, and it's time now for the the ones who have that vision from God, from his word, just to step into place. And there's gonna have to be, like, a mix. You know? We're an organization like us needs someone that people trust in the mainstream to go, nope. They know what they're doing. And this is these guys, this is the future for missions. This is where we need to head. Probably gonna need someone to like bridge that just because that's how people are, or books written or more success along those lines happens. But, I'm very confident in what we're doing because I know it comes from God's word. And if you do what God's word says, God is the one obligated to back it. So that that feels comforting.

[00:50:23.09] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. And that's great. I think this has been real helpful. Thanks so much, for responding, for Ben, Laurie for being here today. Like always, we so appreciate when you guys share this show with others, when you like and subscribe. It really does mean the world to us. Until next time, we'll see you guys then.