Summary: In this episode of College Conversations, Jeff and Laurie discuss the role of college administration and the pressures they face in serving students and maintaining the college's mission. They share insights into the enrollment and marketing process and discuss the importance of finding mission-fit students.

[00:00:10.69] - Jeff Sherrod

Hey, everyone, and welcome back to College Conversations, podcast about all things related to Christian higher education. If you're a prospective student or a parent, current college student, you have kids that are looking for college at one time. This is really the podcast for you. While we do get into, conversation about college specific matters, really, we're, like, talking about life. And what does it mean to disciple people into Christ likeness? I'm joined today, with, VP of Enrollment and Marketing, Mrs. Laurie Kagay.

[00:00:41.50] - Laurie Kagay

It's me.

[00:00:42.10] - Jeff Sherrod

My name is Jeff Sherrod. We're excited to talk to you guys today. Today, we're talking just about college administration. I think that this is another area that maybe sometimes students don't always interact with when they go to college. Right? Like, you you would go maybe you're interacting with some people from student life. I think that happens to some degree, at least in my situation.

[00:01:00.39] - Laurie Kagay

They're at the events or they're gonna be counseled by people.

[00:01:02.89] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. That kind of thing. If you get in trouble, you know, you certainly would interact with the administration. But, really, it's like, you know, it's a lot of student work, whether it's the RA, or certainly faculty. Right? You're interacting in college a lot with faculty. So, yeah, there were, you know, there's this other arm of the college, which is the administration. This is an area that we both we're we're both we do faculty. We call ourselves faculty and administrators. Yes. Yeah. We're so we're faculty. We do a lot of administration. So what I thought we could do for this time is just talk a little bit about what administration does, and maybe we can just start with your role. So you're the VP of Marketing Enrollment. Peel back the the the curtain here. Like, what what what what happens in in your area?

[00:01:48.00] - Laurie Kagay

Marketing enrollment, I think, has a lot to do with the communication aspects of the school. Marketing, even the way I like to think about it, is, like, the storytelling. Like, putting who we are as a college out there for people to be able to view it. And in this era, that's quite broad. So that could be everything from, you know, a write up, social media thing, or a documentary or a podcast or a film, kind of anything on the communications and also creative side Yeah. Falls under marketing. So at one point, before we were structured the way we were now, Jeff was, like, kinda my boss. But he wasn't my boss, but he was a little bit my boss. And I was like, I had to go to him for marketing things, and he'd be like, I don't know.

[00:02:28.90] - Jeff Sherrod

I can't do it anymore.

[00:02:29.90] - Laurie Kagay

Because it happened to do with, like, the visuals. And I was like, yeah. This is weird. Like, why am I asking you that part? Anyway, we just adjusted the org chart. But, yeah, things related to the appearance of the college, And that could be everything from, like, the color of the paint, or the color of the logo and the way it appears in a certain place, to the telling of our story.

[00:02:50.09] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:02:50.80] - Laurie Kagay

And then with enrollment, it also covers the admissions part of the college. So, you know, the bringing in of prospective students, the processing of applications, admissions calls, events related to people visiting campus for the first time, tours, meeting with parents. So it's a I would say a lot of talking, writing, creating. Yeah. But they administrate not every and not every college combines those two. So sometimes marketing is separate from enrollment. Mhmm. And the marketers are really on that, you know, storytelling creative side where enrollment is a little more, like, goal driven and how are we gonna meet our kind of benchmarks on those things.

[00:03:31.59] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:03:32.40] - Laurie Kagay

For us, that is one department, one role. I think it's nice.

[00:03:37.00] - Jeff Sherrod

It's helpful.

[00:03:37.69] - Laurie Kagay

You're good.

[00:03:38.09] - Jeff Sherrod

You're good at both.

[00:03:39.00] - Laurie Kagay

When I go to conferences, they're like, I can't get you know, my enrollment leads are like, I can't get the marketing department to do this. And I was like, oh, yeah. That's all in one person here. Or, like, have you heard of Canva? Have you heard of you know, like, you can do things. So, yeah, for us, that's that's under one roof as you would say.

[00:03:58.69] - Jeff Sherrod

And this is it. I think if someone's listening, this is critically important. So if you're hearing, like, font choice and colors, you're like, oh, if that's what you decide to spend your life on, it's not it's not like that. Right? It's like it's part of when you're saying, like, tell our story. We are trying to market, but we're trying to market to a particular type of student.

[00:04:15.59] - Laurie Kagay

That's right.

[00:04:16.10] - Jeff Sherrod

Right? And then in terms of enrollment, this is also really important. Like, we've gotten really great advice from over the years, heard from a lot of people. Like, it's not just about bringing in students. It's about bringing

[00:04:24.10] - Laurie Kagay

in The right students.

[00:04:25.19] - Jeff Sherrod

The right students. Because this is actually something that can

[00:04:28.50] - Laurie Kagay

Make or break a school.

[00:04:29.50] - Jeff Sherrod

I mean, that's real. And sometimes I think we think about, like, oh, we made a really bad administrative hire or faculty. That can also break a school. But sometimes it's just like if schools get in this pattern, they're like, we just need to grow, especially for us as bible colleges. I mean, yeah, we we wanna grow. We're trying to, like, have students here, but, I mean, we really are interested in the right kind of students. So That's right. What kind of processes if if students that are thinking about applying to bible colleges for us, maybe, could you talk about our experience? What kind of things are you thinking about? How do we get mission fit students here, the right kind of student, however we wanna talk about it?

[00:05:02.69] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah. I think I mean, that and then it it kind of all is one process. So when you're talking about, like, live or die by font choice oh, yeah. But, like, people do judge you for it. So if you just look at, like, public perception, people are like, why does it look weird? Why is there

[00:05:15.69] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:05:16.00] - Laurie Kagay

They say now people take about three seconds to decide if they wanna stay on your website or not. So, you know, like, you can judge it, but then you can also be like, but I do the same thing. Yeah. It's right. Go to website. It doesn't work. I'm like, well Yeah.

[00:05:26.89] - Jeff Sherrod

Moving on.

[00:05:27.50] - Laurie Kagay

Forget about it. Right. So there is that. But as far as, yeah, mission fits students and how to recruit them and how to find them, It is a challenging task. I think it's especially challenging in an era where Christianity is on the decline. So you're, I mean, you're looking that's, like, baseline. Right? Have a have a faith value. But even anymore, people are, like, finding their faith value, you know, alone, and not going to church. I know for us, that's that's one of our red flags is, like, we say it on the application. Where's your home church?

[00:05:58.30] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:05:59.00] - Laurie Kagay

And if they don't have one, we're like, oh, this may get tricky. Or we also say, you know, we'd like the name of a spiritual mentor that you've had in your life. Not only the name, the phone number. We'd like to talk to them.

[00:06:08.89] - Jeff Sherrod

And we we've had, like, applicants push back on that. Yeah. They're like, well, I don't have a home church, and I don't know why that matters.

[00:06:15.39] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah. And they're like, can you talk to my mom? I'm like, I can. But you're And we will. And we will. And I love your mom. But, also, it's good to get a little, you know, third party inquiry. So, I mean, a lot does come down to what what do you require even on your, applications and those things. So, yeah, like, we we require reference. We do reference calls. I think that does help. Yeah. We did letters for a number of years, and we realized, like, you can really fluff through a letter. Like, I wanna I wanna they're actually some of my favorite is is talking to the youth pastors, and it kinda restores my my hope in the church. Like, I've just talked to some really precious youth pastors. Who deeply

[00:06:52.89] - Jeff Sherrod

care about these kids. Yeah.

[00:06:53.80] - Laurie Kagay

Thank you so much for the way in which you invested in this kid.

[00:06:56.80] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:06:57.39] - Laurie Kagay

But they can tell me insights that that differ a little bit from what the kid's parents can.

[00:07:01.10] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:07:01.89] - Laurie Kagay

Our students also write essays when they apply, and they also record kind of an introductory video. And both of those, it's rare anymore. Like, in the enrollment conferences, they're like, no one cares about the essay. If you want more apps, just get rid of the essay. And we've been one of the few schools that's like, no. Like, they're gonna have to write a lot when they get here. Yeah. You might as well start now. So, yeah, we actually probably have less applications because of it, but it, to me, is also a sign. Like, are you serious about coming here? What's the point in, like, getting two hundred applications if ten percent of them are serious? Yeah. Or just dealing with the ones who would write an essay in a video, things like that. And then, again, like, actually spending time with a student. We have a preview day on Wednesday of this week. So, like Yep. Less than forty eight hours from now. And we do some interesting things as a part of our preview day, I think, even that surprised people. Like, I just match the preview day with our our normal student experience. So you worship alongside our students. You, you know, sit and listen to the word preached alongside our students.

[00:08:04.10] - Jeff Sherrod

Yep.

[00:08:04.50] - Laurie Kagay

We obviously have a campus tour. You have lunch, you know, all those things, but then you go and serve alongside our students. Yep. And I don't know other people who do that.

[00:08:12.50] - Jeff Sherrod

We go off campus.

[00:08:13.60] - Laurie Kagay

You go off campus. I'm like, probably pack some clothes. You know? You Yeah. It would be okay sweating in or doing these different things because our students do that every Wednesday.

[00:08:22.10] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:08:22.60] - Laurie Kagay

They they have a heart for service, and it's built into their weekly schedule.

[00:08:26.19] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:08:26.60] - Laurie Kagay

And for preview day, you actually go alongside other students. And in that time, like, it's it does a few things. One, it reminds you, like, why do you wanna go to school?

[00:08:34.29] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:08:35.10] - Laurie Kagay

Is it only you know? Because I think that's the tension a lot with, kids who are interested in bible theology. Like, well, I'm interested in it. I don't know if I wanna, like, do it yet. But our students do. They practice it, and we get to get to know students. Like, our students get to know these prospective students. Faculty serve alongside them as well. Mhmm. And that allows for, I think, a good test even of sociability. Yeah. That's also on the decline in this current age. Like, there's a lot of social media, not so much sociability Right. And the ability to make friends and make friends that are diverse from the way you grew up.

[00:09:12.29] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:09:12.70] - Laurie Kagay

College is, like, a pretty awesome experience in that way. Mhmm. I think it's a crazy one, but it is a cool one that you can be roommates even in a very small space with someone who grew up drastically different than you were.

[00:09:25.60] - Jeff Sherrod

You have to learn what consideration means. You have to to

[00:09:27.39] - Laurie Kagay

to to learn You just it all gets tested. Yeah. And you realize kinda how judgy you are. You realize how strong your opinions actually are. Yeah. You know, like, all of that is kind of a boiling pot

[00:09:36.39] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:09:37.29] - Laurie Kagay

In in the college experience. So, and then we obviously do, like, q and a's and all that as part of preview day. But those would be some of the tests that we're looking for. We obviously we look at students' academic performance, their GPA. Mhmm. We do look at their writing sample. But some of it's also just to know where they are. You know? Right. What what skills are you coming in with? I mean, high schools can be drastically different.

[00:10:02.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:10:02.50] - Laurie Kagay

So you get a GPA from five different schools, and they may mean a lot of different things Right. Just because of the culture of that school.

[00:10:10.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:10:10.60] - Laurie Kagay

So of, you know, a video, an essay, it allows our admissions team to get to know the student.

[00:10:16.70] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:10:17.00] - Laurie Kagay

But, definitely, even that visit to campus, even getting to know the parents is, I think, a special part, where we can sit down with the parents

[00:10:24.00] - Jeff Sherrod

and say also helpful.

[00:10:24.89] - Laurie Kagay

How do you feel about this Right. Decision, and what are your holdups or questions?

[00:10:28.79] - Jeff Sherrod

Right. So Yeah. I get to work on the admissions committee, which is a cool responsibility, but also something we all take real seriously just because, you know, it's something that we I know we share this heart. Like, we really want for students what God wants for them. Mhmm. And so we pray over these people. We read a lot of materials. We watch videos. And then we're like, man, is this gonna we want this to work for this student. And if it doesn't, we maybe know another college where Yeah. This might work for you. And we have a lot of friends out there at different colleges.

[00:10:56.00] - Laurie Kagay

We do.

[00:10:56.79] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. So that that's something You also I I know that for us as an administration team, we work pretty close together. So, like, even in our office, we have you who does all the marketing enrollment. I'm the academic dean, so I kind of oversee, the curriculum and faculty and

[00:11:15.00] - Laurie Kagay

some of those. Saying kind of, but you mean you do?

[00:11:17.89] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. That's what I do. That's my job. We have the registrar that works in that office. We also have the IT director Mhmm. That works in that office and the librarian.

[00:11:28.10] - Laurie Kagay

Right.

[00:11:28.50] - Jeff Sherrod

So it's like a it's an administrative hub. Yep. And we all teach as well. Yeah. It's kinda the nature of, we say, a small school. Right? But it's like, you know, all of us kinda came in through teaching.

[00:11:38.60] - Laurie Kagay

Right.

[00:11:38.89] - Jeff Sherrod

think all of us actually. Right? We start start teaching. And then, we have Jen Yaga, who is our student life director, and then Greg, of course, who is the president. We have a great relationship. You know, it's like I think that sometimes people kind of ask, like, administratively, are you guys kind of together with the faculty? I'm like, yeah. We're we know each other. We're we're you know, most of the time, it is us. Right? So even

[00:11:58.60] - Laurie Kagay

like that marketing verse enrollment. Moment. Like, well, we are the faculty. So, yes, we get along with them.

[00:12:03.00] - Jeff Sherrod

And even when we have faculty who are faculty faculty, you know, these are people that we've worked with and sometimes over ten years.

[00:12:08.79] - Laurie Kagay

You know? So So

[00:12:09.10] - Jeff Sherrod

So So it's a long history of people that we work with for a long time. Mhmm. And then, you know, even even just the relationship that we have with, Jen over student life.

[00:12:18.10] - Laurie Kagay

Right.

[00:12:18.29] - Jeff Sherrod

Who is our student life director. So I think we have a strong team

[00:12:21.50] - Laurie Kagay

Mhmm.

[00:12:21.89] - Jeff Sherrod

Overall. It's a very close knit, kind of team. We're all kind of in it together. If there's a need, we'll drop what we're doing, and we'll kind of go over to this other need, you know, even if it's kind of outside of our job. So that's that's kind of a fun thing. When you're thinking about, like, maybe just the pressures of, an administrative team, a small team, you know, what what do you think are some of the pressures on college administration administrative teams? What do we what do we do?

[00:12:46.20] - Laurie Kagay

I mean, I think I can only speak from, like, what I experience.

[00:12:48.60] - Jeff Sherrod

That's what we're doing. Yep.

[00:12:49.79] - Laurie Kagay

I was I went to a conference once, and they're like, the enrollment directors, like, are the most, like, performance based job. Mhmm. Another another conference I went to, they said, like, there's three jobs where numbers don't lie, something like that.

[00:13:05.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:13:05.70] - Laurie Kagay

Where you can't escape the numbers. And it was the the president, this the CFO. No. The president, the enrollment officer, and the coaches.

[00:13:13.70] - Jeff Sherrod

Okay. Yeah. So president because whether it's, like, is the is is the call of college financially solvent?

[00:13:18.89] - Laurie Kagay

Right. Because even the finance would, like, would go in this in the end to the president.

[00:13:24.20] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:13:24.50] - Laurie Kagay

So, yeah, it was president enrollment and then coaches.

[00:13:26.70] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. I guess coaches if you're winning.

[00:13:29.00] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah. But, yeah, I think for enrollment, the pressure can feel

[00:13:33.70] - Jeff Sherrod

heavy. A lot. Yeah. Yeah. Because you have goals.

[00:13:35.39] - Laurie Kagay

Feel like a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And I think even in our model, it's interesting because, it's not only the goals of bringing in students. It's, like, the future growth that exists even for so many integrated parts.

[00:13:49.10] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:13:50.20] - Laurie Kagay

So, yeah, the the pressure's a little high for that. If if you don't know the stats, like, they say, one point seven percent of graduating high school seniors, want to study the Bible. That's part of their higher education.

[00:14:03.70] - Jeff Sherrod

We're just swimming in

[00:14:04.79] - Laurie Kagay

the middle of one another. Yeah. One point seven percent is what we're working with. And it it hops to a whole, I think, three percent when you include all, like, ministry related fields. Okay. So, like, we are really Yeah.

[00:14:18.79] - Jeff Sherrod

This is a this

[00:14:19.50] - Laurie Kagay

is a smaller pool. Like, a very small and that those are, yeah, of high school graduates. Anyway so, I mean, those pressures are tough. But then, again, being a small school, I think you can get another pressure is maybe being pulled in so many directions where, like you said, who we all share an office. And we can easily get pulled into, well, this needs to happen over here and this here and this here and this here.

[00:14:44.79] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Sometimes we have this happen where, like, you and I will be in a conversation, and then someone else is suddenly in this conversation.

[00:14:51.29] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah.

[00:14:51.39] - Jeff Sherrod

And this is maybe not their job, but we're all kind of in it together, so that definitely happens. Yeah.

[00:14:55.70] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah. We also sometimes, like, I'm gonna work remote today just to just to focus. We we all have, like, our AirPods, you know, we, like, put in. That's kinda like, hey. I'm focused, guys. But, yeah, sometimes that that comes up. But, yeah, I think that what what were you gonna say? I think that for me pressures.

[00:15:13.60] - Jeff Sherrod

Maybe the maybe I'll just highlight one. The one I think that maybe I feel more than anything else is there's all the work to keep a college going. Right? So it's like there's a tremendous amount of paperwork. There's all the, like, the planning side. There's always a new semester coming. Yeah. There's always events that are happening. There's things that are going. And at the same time, like, you recruited students

[00:15:34.79] - Laurie Kagay

Right.

[00:15:35.10] - Jeff Sherrod

That you know and you love and you, like, have spent time with. So I think that's maybe the main pressure I feel as a college administrator is that I have things that I have ten things that by 9AM need to get done. Right. But at the same time, I'm walking by students sometimes where I'm like, oh, man, but I I wanna talk to them too. Right. So I think that's all that's sometimes what I feel is, like, I have this you know, we we got into this because of the students. Mhmm. That's, like, why we we all got into this is that we wanted to see people, like, really surrender unapologetically without reservation to Jesus. Mhmm. I mean, that was what this was about. And so I think that, you know, just as I've gotten older, just trying to be like, alright. Yes. I do have stuff that I do have to get done, but I'm gonna I'm gonna take

[00:16:16.20] - Laurie Kagay

a moment. Nice thing is, like, if you didn't know this listening, for our staff, we all live within walking distance of the school. Yeah. So sometimes when you get into that pressure, you can be like, but do you wanna come over for dinner tonight? Yeah. Right. You know, like, it can kinda push to those margins where I think a normal faculty administrator would leave office and be like, I didn't get a chance. Yeah. You know? Like, we we really might play intramural sports with our students or go abroad with our students. Mhmm. But, yeah, sometimes my pressure is like, how am I gonna clean my house? Because I told them I could come out here for dinner. That's okay. Right. Or, like, my kid is FaceTiming me again, and I was trying to be on this podcast. You know? Like, Like, they're funny things too.

[00:16:55.70] - Jeff Sherrod

Exactly. I had some students over for Settlers of Catan on, Saturday night. But, yeah, same thing. It's like so we're, you know, it's like, clean the house, kids. Students are coming. So that's that's that is fun. That is fun time. Yeah. Absolutely. But, yeah, I think that, you know, that sometimes it's just trying to you wanna be all in on the students, but there's the things that you have to do at the same time. But I think that just recognizing it's all part of the labor that we have right now. It's like you know? And I think that's also what I've had to do mentally is to say, alright. What I'm doing right now is, like, bit of paperwork to get this done. This is serving this student.

[00:17:26.40] - Laurie Kagay

It is serving this student.

[00:17:27.20] - Jeff Sherrod

This is helping them. They might not know this right now.

[00:17:29.29] - Laurie Kagay

Probably not what we knew what we knew either when we signed up for this. You know, when we entered this kinda

[00:17:34.09] - Jeff Sherrod

occupy so many people that are like, I wanna be a college administrator. You know, there's they they are there.

[00:17:39.70] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah.

[00:17:39.90] - Jeff Sherrod

They're just less than I think those people.

[00:17:41.70] - Laurie Kagay

But I actually there's a a book I'm having my class read. It's called, So Good They Can't Ignore You. And it's it deals with the premise of, like this is a little bit off topic, but I feel like it back there. It deals with the premise that, like, follow your passion, and it will complete you in regards to, like, your career. It challenges that notion.

[00:18:00.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:18:01.09] - Laurie Kagay

And it's like, this is false. Like, we are sold it very strongly as Americans, but it's false. And it says, like, what will make you happy in life is being good at your job. Yeah. And it takes time to get good at your job. Uh-huh. But one of their case studies was who's, like, the happiest person we've interviewed out of all these people, and it was a college administrator. But they were like they were like, I've been doing it for twenty years. Right. I understand that it serves these students Yeah. And serves, like, a greater calling. And I love my life. Like, anyway, it was kinda that simple, but it stuck with me. Because I'm like, it's not what you think. Right. But at the same time, there is something so special about it. Mhmm. And when you can tap into that Okay. This thing is serving the students, though.

[00:18:43.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:18:44.09] - Laurie Kagay

Like, even we recent recently got accredited, and it's, like, ten thousand pages of paperwork.

[00:18:50.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Over six or seven years. Yeah. A lot of work.

[00:18:53.20] - Laurie Kagay

But, you know, part of motivation was that. How can we serve our students better?

[00:18:56.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Exactly right. Yep.

[00:18:58.09] - Laurie Kagay

And even, like, how can we even find those mission fit students? Because, how can you tell one college from the other? And what does it mean to be vetted? And how can we serve them? Yeah. So

[00:19:09.20] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. I think that's the cool thing. And we've been in a lot of conferences with other college administrators over the years. Mhmm. I think that that is a heart that I've seen shared, at least in our association of Bible colleges, is that you have people that love Jesus, love these students, and are trying their best, to build a system, that's gonna serve them. So, yeah, I mean, if you guys I think that, you know, maybe if I'm just making a plug like we always do for bible colleges, that's what we're doing on here. But, yeah, if you guys are are listening to this and you're like, man, I wanna go to some place that, like, loves me, that's concerned about my well-being, that's gonna help me with my career choices, you know, and so many more things. Bible College is great fit.

[00:19:45.09] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah. And that's that's probably my favorite, like, on we're talking about campus visits and student visits. I was doing a tour, and had some students alongside me. I like to bring students with me so I can be like, I'm not making it up. Like, you know, they they testify to their own experience too. But, one of the mothers asked one of our students, you know, do you think this will be a good fit for my daughter? And our student responded, and he said, I don't I mean, I don't know in the end completely what she wants. What but what I know about the school is she'll be loved. And I was like, oh, man. I love that. Like, he just but that was his answer, was I do know this. I know I know she'll be loved. Yeah. And I think I think a lot of our students would agree. Yeah. And, again, a lot of Bible colleges out there, but that that's the goal.

[00:20:30.59] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's been an honor. I I know that I've got to do it for, long time. I think seventeen, eighteen years. I've been doing college administration work. It's been, like, the work that I put my whole life into at this point. Mhmm. And it's been my great joy to be able to serve with my teammates, serve the students, serve the Lord. Yeah. It's a wonderful thing. Hey, everybody. Thanks for joining us again for College Conversations. Like always, we'd love to for you guys to subscribe, to our channel, head over to it, Like, share, do all the wonderful things. It helps us out and helps us be able to continue to offer this wonderful product to other people. Till then, we'll see you guys next time.

[00:21:05.50] - Laurie Kagay

Bye.