Podcast Synopsis
In this episode, Gregg Garner and Jeff Sherrod sit down with Dr. Marty Harris, President of Latin America Bible Institute in California and a seasoned counselor and college professor in psychology. They discuss the mental health concerns prevalent on college campuses today. This conversation focuses on uncovering the root causes of increased stress among college students and offers insights into effective strategies for managing mental well-being. An essential listen for anyone looking to understand and mitigate the mental health challenges faced by students in their college years.

Season 1 Episode 4: College Stress Epidemic - What’s the Real Cause? (Episode Transcript)

Jeff Sherrod 0:04

Hey everybody, and welcome back to college conversations, podcast about all things related to Christian higher education. I'm your host, Jeff shared, and in today's episode, we're exploring a topic that's crucial, really to the well being of every student and educator mental health on college campuses. In this episode, we're honored to have a distinguished guest, Dr. Marty Harris. Dr. Harris is the president of the la Bible Institute, and a clinical psychologist with over 30 years of experience, you'll want to stick around for this episode, we'll have a great time talking about mental health, education, spiritual wellness, I know that this will be really encouraging for you guys. And this episode, we look at the role of stress, the function of cortisol, and how this all plays into mental health. Dr. Harris sheds light on the pandemic's magnification of particularities, like obsessive compulsive tendencies and anxiety and he emphasizes the need to manage stress levels. And as we get into it, we explore spiritual growth, overcoming obstacles, and the vital role of community and mentorship in Christian college settings. Dr. Harris shares his wisdom on forgiveness and its impact on mental and physical health. It's a really insightful section. And it also includes the importance of maintaining relationships and showing grace to one another. We look at the intersection of mental health and spiritual wellness, an area that I think needs more attention given to attend churches and college campuses. And we also touch on the generational differences in Mental Health Perspectives, you know, looking at the patterns of relationships and the need for proactive support on college campuses. The episode concludes with a spotlight on mental health and wellness and Christian college settings. And with a focus on taking ownership of one's thoughts and feelings, Dr. Harris offers practical solutions and emphasizes the importance of mental health support for college students. Like I said, you guys will really enjoy this episode. So stick around. This is college conversations. Let's get underway.

Gregg Garner 2:07

Welcome back to College Conversations. This is Gregg Garner. I'm joined by Professor Jeffrey Sherrod. Hey, everyone. And today we have a very special guest all the way from La Quinta, California. He is the president of the LA Bible Institute, which is the longest standing Biblical education, higher education post secondary education institution for Hispanics in the United States. And he is much more accomplished than everything I'm saying here. But part of what I want to do initially Dr. Marty is hear from you and just let our listeners learn about where you're coming from and how it is that you're at this place right now, because you are also a clinical psychologist, and have more education than most people even dream about having. And we just want to talk today even about mental health. But ladies and gentlemen, we just want to welcome to the show Dr. Marty Harris. Welcome.

Dr. Mary Harris 3:03

Thank you, Mr. President, so great to be here. And yes, I'm president of LABI College, the oldest Hispanic Bible college in the country. And I'm not a theologian by training, trained in clinical psychology. Although I have a very small private practice right now. I serve as the university psychologist for emergency purposes. So students have issues they come to me or staff or faculty. And then I have a private practice where I exclusively work with pastors, because pastors need emotional support, and pastors need counseling. And they often don't seek out counseling, when they provide the most counseling more than psychologists, psychiatrists, marriage, family therapist combined. Pastors are the ones that are serving. So it's so important that we keep track of the needs of our pastors, and protect them and invest in them as well.

Gregg Garner 3:49

That's right. And what I know that is so special about that service is that you offer it for free. Absolutely, yeah. These pastors can seek out that help.

Dr. Mary Harris 3:58

When we invest, educate, elevate our pastors, I feel like we're doing it for the whole church. So I don't just I'm not just working with one client, but I'm working with hundreds, perhaps of clients. Because if we ease the burden of our pastors, they're freed up to work with all the

Gregg Garner 4:13

Members that they had, sir. Yeah, that's right. And I know that you have also shared with me that initially, when you offer this service to pastors, there was some reluctance. Yeah. But today, you are overwhelmed with demand. I've been

Dr. Mary Harris 4:26

doing this for 20 years. And so back 20 years ago, I got very few takers for it. But over the last 10 years, pastors are seeing more and more more pastors are getting depressed, anxious, some even have thoughts of suicide, and they typically have not had a place to go where they feel safe and comfortable. Now, the demand is so great that I'm getting calls every week and I literally have to, I'd never say no, but I have to postpone them and I don't like to do that or I refer them to other people who are more accessible. So yeah, the need is great, and I'm so blessed that the eyes and minds and hearts It's a pastors are changing in terms of terms of seeking care for themselves. Yeah,

Gregg Garner 5:03

Yeah, that's fantastic. Now, part of your journey is that you grew up Catholic. Yeah. And then came into a biblical relationship with Jesus. When you were a teenager.

Dr. Mary Harris 5:18

That's right. I was 18, I was a freshman at the University of California, Irvine, and lost really surrounded by intelligentsia and books and philosophy. And I thought to myself, you know, what about my faith, and ended up at a small southern, excuse me, conservative Baptist Church in Santa Ana, California, Spanish speaking and just fell in love with the community that fellowship and then of course, Jesus. Wow,

Gregg Garner 5:43

Wow. And you were at UC Irvine, because originally, you're pre med, right?

Dr. Mary Harris 5:49

I wanted to be a medical doctor, because doctors make a lot more money than pastors or psychologist and was all set to go to medical school. And someone said, wanted to volunteer at a hospital. And so I did I speak Spanish somewhat fluently. And they said, well, we need a translator on the OBGYN ward. And that's where the babies are born, held.

Jeff Sherrod 6:06

Now, how do you at this point?

Dr. Mary Harris 6:07

I was 20 ish. I knew I was probably a junior in college. And it was just amazing. Going through that process, translating helping the patients communicate with the doctors, all great until the first night of the first delivery. And I shared yesterday in chapel it was a 16 hour delivery. A lot of scrying, creaming screaming and some fainting and all of it coming from me. And I realized medicine wasn't a profession. For me. It's a great profession. And so I chose psychology.

Gregg Garner 6:36

That’s awesome. That's great. And then choosing the field of psychology and going through because you had to do some master's work, and then you did Dr. Work, then you did postdoctoral work at Cornell. Right. That's right. And what was your emphasis there?

Dr. Mary Harris 6:48

Well, at Cornell was student mental health. So I worked at UCLA before there in terms of my pre doctoral internships after finishing at Washington State. Then I did something called a postdoc at Cornell. at both places, I worked at the Student Health Services, and provided mental health for the for the college student community. It's amazing

Gregg Garner 7:06

what a fantastic transition for the conversation we want to have today, which is all about student mental health. Right? And I feel like for Jeff and I, we are excited to talk less Yeah, right in this podcast, because we have someone who your career at this point spans 30 years it does in the field

Dr. Mary Harris

does. I've been certainly teaching at the collegiate level since 1990. So about 30 years, and then practicing about 1991 as a doctoral student, and then finished my doctoral program in 1995.

Gregg Garner 7:39

Well, that is a fantastic amount of experience that's been developed into wisdom, I'm sure. And you're so wonderfully articulate. I'm excited for our listeners to glean from you all that they can benefit. Yeah. So we want to kick it off with some questions. Yeah.

Jeff Sherrod 7:52

And this is, you know, this has always been a need mental health concerns, I think, probably more recently, it's been even called a crisis. Even on college campuses. I was actually doing a Google search this morning. I just typed in college students. And yeah, and the first auto response or auto fill was mental health. Yeah. And the second one was depression. You know, so and I know those aren't like the best metrics for always sharing what's going on. But that's what people are looking at? Well,

Gregg Garner 8:22

yeah, there's an algorithm in Google, that is going to fill in the blank based upon what's most searched, right. So it tells us at least what our demographics your students are looking for you. We

Jeff Sherrod 8:34

were all of us were at the Association for Biblical Higher Education Conference in in February, and one of the conferences that I went to, or the sessions I went to was just on mental health, as it relates to college students. And everyone that was in there was mostly student life, people that was in there, I was kind of the outlier. But they were all just saying that they the counselors that they had on campus are completely overwhelmed. That they're all looking for ways of referring people out to other people, because they can't keep up with the demand anymore. And it's one of the things that even students that are coming to college, it's one of the primary things that they're looking for. Yeah, actually is some kind of mental health resource or help counselling service. So I think there's, you know, there's so much to talk about in this thing. I think one of them is just trying to figure out, you know, Dr. Marty, when you're talking about this, is, is this just all exasperated? Because of the pandemic? Was this already starting to happen? Because of that, you know, what are some of the causes that you're seeing? Fantastic,

Dr. Marty Harris 9:32

Great questions. And I'll back up a little bit and give you maybe a one minute tutorial on mental health and what is the problem? Right. First of all, I think it's important to understand that we're all different. Yeah, we're all I use the word peculiar or even weird, because that's the way God made us and that's what makes us beautifully wonderful. Anytime I get a client in front of me, I'm fascinated, because everybody, every single person has a wonderful story to tell. And we just have to listen and learn. But what is a mental issue or disorder? or challenge is typically identified by does it interfere with your functioning? So whatever the symptoms you are, whether it's anxiety, depression, learning disability, does it interfere with your functioning? And there's five areas to consider. Just ask yourself, is it interfering with my studies? My learning? If it is, perhaps it's a disorder, you know, you can't concentrate, you can't focus, you can't take a test. Is it interfering with my employment or my work? I can't go to work, I can't do my job, I can't focus. Maybe it's a disorder? Is it if interfere with your family, your relationship with your family, your husband, your wife, children? Is there a social issue, you can't go to church because you're anxious about the community. And the fifth, and most important as a believer is, how does what you're experiencing impact your faith walk? And many times we get stuck in the emotional desert? And we just stay there, whether it's depression, anxiety, whatever. And is our faith being impacted? Because the reality is if you are, your faith has been impacted by whatever it is you're going through, all of the other areas of your life are going to be impacted? Yeah, psychology generally tends to say, don't ask about faith. And I go right to it. Because if you tell me your faith walk, you're gonna tell me a lot about the other areas of your life. So with students, that's an important thing to understand, is it interfering with your functioning? Are you just weird and different? Because we're all weird and different? And there's a fine line. To do that. Has this impact been impacted by the pandemic? Yes, our peculiarities, our weirdness, our obsessive compulsive tendencies, which are not, disorders can get magnified under stress, there's a chemical in the brain called cortisol. And that increases, then issues will come out that maybe weren't there before. Yeah. And as the pandemic comes down, and cortisol lowers that will retreat back to just being a little peculiar and weird. So yeah, this has done that. For some people. I've seen children, for the most part, just the anxiety, the stresses of having to walk through the pandemic. I've seen it in adults as well. I seen it impact relationships. Yes. It's impacted how communication happens. Trust in and things like that. Yeah. But yes, it has. But I think it hasn't happened as bad as I thought it would be. Okay, and I thought there'd be a lot of people suffering from panic attacks or obsessive compulsive disorder or greater depression. So I think that we kind of were kind of all in the same boat. And I think that's helped. Right?

Gregg Garner 12:20

Yeah, it was it, there was a greater sense of isolation, and that we're the only ones having to mask up and distance and stay in our houses. Yeah, I can see how the, the community of isolation kind of has buffered the severity of those effects. I think my heart just dropped when you said you've seen it in kids and having a think about just how that's going to impact the way they're even brain forms. Just, gosh, pray for protection for kids along those lines. Let me ask you this, as you're talking about the weirdness of cure Yardies of people. How is that different? Or is it different from like the development of neuroses? Well,

Dr. Marty Harris 13:02

neurosis is a term that we use for people that are kind of overly anxious about stuff and whatnot. So yeah, I think that if somebody has a propensity, a biological predisposition, the DNA says, Hey, you're gonna, you tend to be more anxious about something under pressure, whatever that pressure is, those who are going to come out more. So if we can relieve the pressure that will calm down, and it doesn't be a disorder anymore. It's just a, you know, a peculiarity or so it all depends on the pressure, we need to keep the stress level as low as possible. And we can function more efficiently. Now, some people function at very high stress levels, and that's just the way they are. But for most of us, if we can relieve the pressure, if we can provide hope, if we can provide a plan, if we can focus on the things that we have within our spiritual tool bags, we can do a lot. Prayer, forgiveness, being humble. Yeah, those are things that can really help us in crisis.

Gregg Garner 13:58

I really want to get back to those three things. But based upon what you're saying, this elevation of cortisol, yes, that is the impetus for distress distress hormone, it's a stress hormone. And the reduction of stress then, is going to reduce the cortisol, which then is going to help us operate optimized, it

Dr. Marty Harris 14:19

will. And it also reduces things like the propensity towards high blood pressure, or stroke or other cardiovascular problems. So the lower the stress hormone, the better you're going to be able to function. All of us have this zone of optimal functioning. Some of us function at a very high stress level, some of us very at a very low stress level, we need to find out what is our stress level

Gregg Garner 14:39

and how do we determine that like, for example, for me, if you were to if I was to look at my pulse right now on my watch, or I was to get my blood pressure taken in let's say, the nurse didn't know me, they would be like checking their equipment again, because my pulse is typically in the 40s and my blood pressure is always on the lower side. It used to be lower than what it should be in a lower average pronounced lower average is, is that going to be an indicator for somebody with respect to how it is they're handling stress or dealing with stress for some

Dr. Marty Harris 15:12

people, you know, I know you know that you operate at a very high stress level. So for what it is for normal people to you that you operate at a much higher level. So you physiologically I think you can control a lot of your physiological symptoms, so they wouldn't be able to do that. For you. It'd be I'd have to ask you, well, how are you sleeping? How's your energy level? How's your concentration? Yeah, what are you worrying about? And so those are more kind of

Gregg Garner 15:38

mean, what an amazing checklist. I wish I was writing things down, I'm so glad this is recorded as your memory,

Dr. Marty Harris 15:42

you know, how were the things that you are? How's your digestive tract? Are you doing okay? Because those might be things that you can't measure with the polls. But you know, they're a little bit unusual, or exacerbated or worse, because of the stress that you're under.

Jeff Sherrod 15:56

Wow. One of the things I'm really appreciating about what you're saying and I know that this jives with what we do here as well, is that I think that sometimes people, when they think about getting down their stress, they put almost faith at the end of the whole process. Like let me, let me start working out which is wonderful. Let me start taking away responsibilities, which sometimes can help. But then it's like, once I get that, then I'll fix my relationship with the Lord, you know, and the approach that we take based on God's word is the same man, if you start with God, that's right. If you begin with this thing is you can kind of go the other way. Yeah.

Dr. Marty Harris 16:28

And I am practicing what I'm preaching. I'm not telling you that I'm holier than thou, I am not. I've been walking in the desert. And more often than not, we walk in the desert because we liked the desert, or we were enjoying the distraction. And so if you're walking in the desert, you have to ask yourself, why are you walking in the desert and you we can fool other people, we can fool ourselves, but we can't fool God. And so when we're, we need to say, Okay, I need to get out of the desert. How do I do this? And move away from it and begin to realize, okay, and again, I fail every day. But what what am I cultivating an environment that takes me a path away from the desert? Or am I just stuck in the desert and enjoying it? Because I don't want to change and a lot of folks get stuck in the desert. And so I start with a question, how's your faith walk? Because that will tell me about your relationships, your productivity, where your heart is, where your investments are? Tell me about your faith walk? Yeah. And if somebody can articulate that, and most people can, that'll tell you a lot about the emotional aspects of what's going on in their life. Yeah,

Gregg Garner 17:28

that's wonderful. That is fantastic. Now, I love your use of the analogy, the metaphor of the desert. I love utilizing analogies of myself as well. But one thing I've learned over the years, which you probably have, is that sometimes people don't track because maybe the way they make sense of that metaphor doesn't doesn't fit the context for what is being said. In other words, like as a theologian, if I hear you say, desert or wilderness, then there's the there's the wilderness as the classroom, there's the desert as the place for testing. But then if I hear it as a California and I hear you say, desert, I think Palm Springs, like, so. What do you mean, when you're saying, walking in the desert,

Dr. Marty Harris 18:11

it really isn't a more negative connotation. It's isolating yourself, not just for people, but from God, that you feel like you're walking alone, that you're not having sufficient manner, that you're not having sufficient support, that you feel absolutely isolated from God, and from those that are around you. And oftentimes, we do that unconsciously, but strategically, to avoid whatever it is that we're trying to face, and sometimes we get stuck there. So that's what I mean by that, that it's an isolation. It is a The desert is a very difficult place to exist. And when we think about you know, the desert very well, just seeing, you know, dirt and rocks and lizard who survives in their weeds, and cactus, and it's very are made for the desert. We weren't made for the desert. And so, and yet we complain about being in the desert, and where's God? And where's God? Yet we get stuck there. And there's in psychology, there's a sense of comfort sometimes when people get stuck in an emotional, I'm

Gregg Garner 19:07

curious about that, can you can you flesh that out a little bit.

Dr. Marty Harris 19:10

So depression, for example. Some people and people may disagree with Pete, enjoy the aspects of being depressed. Because if you're depressed, you don't have to interact with people. If you're depressed, you may not have to go to work. You don't have to enjoy life. There's a lot of conditions involved with not being depressed that you can blame it on the depression. So you people get stuck in depression. And to get out of it means there's gonna be some pain and some change, and people don't want that, or to get out of anxiety. A quick example, as you heard me yesterday, say, I don't like to fly. I don't like to fly. I do it all the time. It's not a disruption. I can joke about it and get very close to God as I get to 50,000 a year and do that all the time. But some people would say, and the other thing is, I'm afraid of sharks. I have to do the airplane. But for me to get over my fear of sharks would enable require me to go and meet with sharks, too. Get into Shark Tank to pet sharks. I don't want to do that. Thank you, I'll just accept my fear of sharks. And that's it now visit the beach from a distance. But that's what I'm trying to get at. Sometimes we just don't, we're not, we're not we're not afraid of that thing. We're afraid of having to do the things that will make us overcome that fear, which oftentimes requires us to face that fear. And again, I'm comfortable with my fear of sharks. It's not a disorder, blah, blah, blah, I have to fly. So I do fly.

Gregg Garner 20:27

I am just so exhilarated listening to you here, because you are a different breed of psychologists, and I am just pumped about everything you're saying. Because I have sometimes seen people receive counsel from therapists, that basically gives them permission to stay in the desert, and to reorganize their life in such a way that they can live there now. And you're saying, no, no, this disintegration is really killing us. That's right.

Dr. Marty Harris 20:58

That's right. There's a concept in therapy and psychology called paradoxical intention. And that is sometimes you ask people to do the opposite, or just really face their fears. You know, I remember I had a patient 20 years ago who had a fear of going to malls, so she stopped going to mall stop, and she loved to shop, stop going with your child, and they would go shopping all the time. And her fear was that she was gonna lose control start screaming at the mall. In the mall. That was a weird. So I gave her a prescription that said, you have freedom to scream with the law. And not only that you're supposed to and I need you at the next time to go to the mall started screaming to see what app. So the fear is just what's the worst case scenario and she ended up doing it and the mall people kind of said, Please, can you stop doing ratchet whipped out the prescriptions that Dr. Marty said I could scream and so she did. But she laughed about it. But she was able to face it. And then the next

Gregg Garner 21:47

Scripture, Yeah, love.

Dr. Marty Harris 21:48

And so sometimes

Gregg Garner 21:50

you basically gave the person the freedom to be themself.

Dr. Marty Harris 21:54

Not only that, I prescribed it, I let her out. And of course, I knew that nothing terrible was going to happen, right? But, but they needed the freedom to say, oh, yeah, it's okay to do. Yeah, what's what's the worst thing that could happen? Well, he told her to kind of, could you scream outside in the parking lot, you know, not so much in the women's section. And she did. And she was able to face it. And then that helped her overcome that didn't solve all of her property. Yeah. But it helped her to enjoy life more to get a little bit out of the desert.

Gregg Garner 22:22

Yeah, that's, there's a song. It's a it's actually a secular song for using those categories. But the artist grew up a Christian and, and he still has his faith, to the degree that he has it. But in his song, he gets to the end, and he just start seeing hallelujah, Amazing Grace, just trying to do better than yesterday. And I think that intervocalic approach to health is really important. And I believe it's, it's, it falls under the umbrella of receiving the grace of God, to Justin, in that all of us, the Community of Christ has to give people that kind of grace to intervene quickly, just do better than yesterday. Yeah, you know, we don't we don't have to, I think one of the issues. Jeff, I know, you know this as a theologian, when we read the Bible, we see Jesus doing these things, restore people. And if you're in Mark, youth, or will be used the Greek word that just means and immediately, and we fail to interpret the event, because we seem to think that this is the model that God offered for how people get restored or healed, that things happen. Immediately, he touches them, they're healed. But really, if we understand what was going on in the gospels in the ministry of Jesus, and the signs that were being communicated, he was giving us the way to understand how it was that we could participate in something with him on the day to day to ultimately get that result. Yeah, yeah. But that it was going to be the process and the actions where he touches the leopard, or where he he calls the the girl who had been isolated from her family because of the blood issues daughter, like he does all these things to appeal to their psychology. And instead of just looking for things to be immediate, we've got to be the kind of people that let God do all the healing. And we just stay in the room. Yes, it were.

Dr. Marty Harris

That's right. Be open to that. Yeah, I work with pastors. Some of them are older, some of them very traditional. And up more often than not, they come in depressed. The older population actually has the highest rate of depression, have the highest really have the highest rate of suicide. Do they have the highest

Gregg Garner 24:34

rate of denial? Some of them, but they just feel like that generation is always telling me these kids. Yeah, they're always depressed. Yeah, but there's a need to get up and go to work. If

Dr. Marty Harris

you think about it. If you're 85 years old. Do you have your spouse next to you? Have you lost brothers or sisters? Have you lost family members and friends and how's your health? Yeah, when did you get older? I'm older, both of you have more health issues. You guys are young and healthy. Those things impact you and you start to think about depression. Shannon and suicide isn't like we see in a 15 year old, right? They may stop taking care of themselves. medications and I'm going to Dr. Ram eventually, you know, succumb to that. So it's, it's different. We have to be careful to understand the symptoms of depression with different age groups and categories. Yeah.

Gregg Garner 25:15

So I would love to hear from you on that subject matter alone. Maybe we can have you talk about that another time. Now, you you into these three things that you see are the remedies for depression, anxiety and the other things that specifically ministers go through. And you you highlighted prayer, humility and forgiveness. That's right. Can you just share more about that?

Dr. Marty Harris

I think we have in our psychological toolbag, as believers more than what the secular person has. You know, think about that. I've worked with patients who've had tremendous loss loss that you could not imagine that, if it happened to me, Lord, I couldn't take it. But because of their faith, because of the power of, of hope, meaning understanding, they could reconcile it, they can say, you look, even to the point where they would come back to me is I don't understand why I'm going through this test. But I trust you God, that you're going to reveal it to me. Yeah, we have that as believers, the knowledge that meaning will be provided to us, at some point that there is purpose, even in the greatest of suffering, even if we don't understand it, and it's painful. As believers, true believers, we understand that those are powerful things. Forgiveness is toxic. When you're not forgiving to your brain. Cortisol, again, the stress hormone builds up. How many of us all of us have struggled with forgiveness at some point or another? How many of us have lost sleep over it? You know, and I try not to, and I try to forgive quickly. You know, my wife says, You forgive too quickly as well. I think I've got other things that I want to focus on. And not this person who did this, that

Gregg Garner 26:55

the other, I've also been accused of forgiving too quickly. Yeah. And we

Dr. Marty Harris

do that and, but only because I don't want to be distracted. But if we don't forgive, if we're tossing and turning, we're actually giving up space in our head and not charging rent, you know, they're taking over us. If we don't forgive, how can we truly love our wife? Because we're battling unforgiveness? How can we truly love our children? How can we adore and worship God fully if we are battling with unforgiveness,

Gregg Garner 27:23

because you're saying that unforgiveness is taking an element of energy, a space in our brains, that now we can't give to our spouse we can't give to our children we can't give to God. That's right. And, you know, I've seen how the the trends in our culture right now is not to identify forgiveness, as the mode by which to eliminate the toxicity. But it's to eliminate the relationships that seem to be bringing about the toxicity. Maybe you've heard people talk about this or read books like toxic relationships, you cut them off, just some you create, which I imagine there's a time for that which you could discern idli create healthy boundaries. But sounds to me, like you're saying, it sounds way more biblical from God, whose ministry of reconciliation is promoted for the whole world? that forgiveness is the mode, the modality,

Dr. Marty Harris

yeah, and true forgiveness. And I don't think about cutting people off, even though my wife says, What are you doing? Or my staff will say, What are you doing? I've had people and you have to, and you have to had people that attack you, for no particular reason. And you know, it's not of God. And you know, that God has your back. And so I've actually had to terminate somebody, and for these reasons, and explain it to him, and that person got real upset and talked and said, all this stuff, and there was an opportunity to bring them back. And I said, Yeah, let's do it. And even though I knew that they weren't right for my relationship, but they were right for the college, and they were right for the Kingdom. And I felt that maybe I was wrong, and others would say, but I think that is biblical, to be able to embrace them and welcome them back and hug them and, and, and my grandma used to use a phrase in Spanish, and I'll translate conquistadors gonna conquer them with love. And I believe that's very biblical. And so I fail many times, but I don't care. But God is seeing what we're doing. And they're seeing what I'm doing and people are around, are witnessing this forgiveness and this reconciliation that's important. So where possible, where it makes sense. I'm not crazy, I'm gonna do something, you know. But I tried to do that with folks. And, and try to bless them and try to maintain the relationship. I can say what you did here was wrong, but I values a believer, and these are the traits that you have that I hope to bring back. And sometimes I'm successful. And those few times where it's just a hit that I experienced, even though I still think of the head even though I don't see it. It's a wonderful thing to see that transformational experience with that person who was bitter and upset as like, wow, you're giving me great You're walking me back? Of course I am. Because I'm called to do that, and I want to relationship with you. And I want to do that. And again, I don't know if I know my limits, Greg, and I'm reminded by my wife stop doing that, or my staff members don't do that. But I do believe it's biblical. And I do have confidence that if they try to attack again, that again, God will be there for me. I am called to forgive. Yeah, it's actually a requirement. Yeah. And isn't just cut them out. And sometimes there's not a bad thing to cut people out. So let me say that, Greg,

Gregg Garner 30:27

I mean, right. Yeah, there's gotta be circumstances. Yeah. But if it isn't…

Dr. Marty Harris

If it is of the enemy, I'm not going to feed into the enemy, I'm going to try to do things the right way. And sometimes I'm very successful. And sometimes I'm not. But I'm not going to stop or change my behavior, I'm going to do what I can do. Right,

Gregg Garner 30:43

I understand the the social and spiritual impact of unforgiveness, which I think most of our listeners could get there pretty easily help us with the physiological and the psychological. What happens to us when we're not forgiving,

Dr. Marty Harris

when we're not forgiving, our bodies actually change, there's a system in our nervous system called the autonomic nervous system, that's the anything that happens automatically in your body. So that's a good way to remember it is autonomic, that system becomes activated and alert. So now, a subdivision of that is a sympathetic and you we've all heard of this, the fight or flight system, it gets turned on. So now you're walking in almost an agitated anxiety state. Even though outside you're calm. Inside, you feel like this. I'm shaking my hands just trembling. And so it really does affect you. And it affects your ability to think focus, concentrate, make good decisions, cortisol is not helping, right? And that on the long term it can can contribute to cardiovascular problems, heart disease, blood, blood pressure, and things like that. So it does affect how you think it affects your sleep. So now you're going to bed. And we can be busy throughout the day like we are. But in the quiet of the bed, our brain turns on and says, nope, you've got some unresolved issues here. This person is attacking you this versus DACA. And because we don't forgive, we feed into that and fuel that and it affects your sleep asleep was one of the best things you can do to rest your

Gregg Garner 32:09

body. Yeah, because sleep is a detox are absolutely

Dr. Marty Harris

many on many levels, including physiologically, emotionally and your brain. When I was telling Jeff, I had a good night's rest last night. I didn't the first night. I was like, Man, I wish I could preach today. It helps think of the people that are struggling and suffering the most severe cases of suicidal thinking. These people haven't rested. They haven't slept well for two weeks. And imagine people who haven't slept well for six months or longer. It can really impact their thinking and their focus. Yeah,

Jeff Sherrod 32:41

yeah. Even though even as you're saying that just thinking about demonic acts stories that we have like in Mark five, where it's like, you know, this person is on the hills day and night without rest.

Gregg Garner 32:52

Yeah, it's it's something that Jesus wants to give us that rests rest of our souls. Everybody's heavy laden and burden can come to him learn of him. He's gentle. I think I think this is just so yeah. It's it's a need right now for students and in communities of faith, to recognize that these things that we might not even, like, before I even make the statement, just think about the liturgy of church growing up. There's so much that we do to attend to behavior, like it's good to be generous, tithe and give offerings. It's good to be stewards, tithe and give offerings. Make sure your resources are intact. It's great to be kind, ensure your morality and your integrity is all intact. But it's not often that we hear from the pulpit, or even from faculty in the classroom, how important it is, hey, guys, have you slept? And everybody, let's let's just be reminded of the Lord's prayer today, forgive us, as we forgive others, like this is this is so paramount to our faith, we have the scriptures that are easy to come up with. But the practice just doesn't seem to be in infiltrating the systems of worship that we have institutionalized. Yeah. With your pastors, as you've helped them to get healthier. Have you noticed that they start to implement this with their congregation, like, maybe all of a sudden they're going to do a sermon series on rest? Yeah. Or

Dr. Marty Harris

I'm invited this weekend to do work to workshops on mental health at the church, and they're not workshops, their sermons. Yeah, sure what they want me to talk about. Well, sure. And our faith walk. Yeah, this never would have happened before. So they're doing it. Another thing. important for us to think about I know you guys fit this model very well is to be physically active to do exercise. And I do believe it or not, I'm a chubby Mexican guy. I'd love to eat food, but I walk every day three for miles, simple cardiovascular exercise has the same or greater potency than antidepressant medication for mild to moderate depression. So I walk not just because I enjoy walking, so I really don't, but because my mental health to make sure that it controls my cortisol that it affects the chemicals in the brain that affect depression, serotonin, norepinephrine, other other antidepressant type of neuro chemicals. So walking can really just or exercising can impact your brain, sometimes even better than antidepressant medication. Yeah, well, and

Gregg Garner 35:32

Making this a part of our worship, because we want to give God a temple worthy of his name. Yeah, it can help us to reprioritize what it is that we do throughout the day. We're real busy. We got this deadline. I don't have time to walk right now. And because we know God loves us, and we love Him, we recognize Wait a second, the way God designed our body, like the autonomic system. Jeff, you're also a Greek scholar. There's two Greek words there, right? Namaste. For law, I'll toss for self. So we were translated, self regulated, right? It's just so interesting that God designed us to have the self regulating system that goes haywire. That's right. When when there's unforgiveness in us, like we were not designed by God to harbor unforgiveness. It's fascinating. Think

Dr. Marty Harris

of a system that you just mentioned. Yeah. Think of all of us have screeched in our brakes in our car almost hitting somebody or something and almost got into an accident, right? Do you remember that feeling of electricity goes into your body is just like, Whoa, yeah, that happened. 10 minutes later, you should have what I call a diaphragmatic breath, or a Thank You, Jesus. And I'm okay. Yeah, some people never get that breath. And that's where that system is always on for those people. And it needs to calm down. That's a recognition that the parasympathetic nervous system when you do that, thank you, Jesus. And we need to do that. Thank you, Jesus. Yeah, we do often. Yeah, it'll help us with that.

Gregg Garner 37:01

Wow. So this this conversation, is this going so? Well, it's so good. And we have a little bit more time, I would like to share with you. Once the pandemic hit. You met him yesterday, colleague, Professor Benjamin Reese, and I did a podcast series that we released on Apple called thoughts, the logical conversations during COVID. And it, it led into really talking about mental health. And one of the things that I hypothesize, based upon a reading of Scripture was that, really, there's, there's, instead of just saying, This person has this problem, and, and in that case, this is where they are, they are just ill, and then this person over here is healthy. I've discovered in Scripture that it seems that there's actually a spectrum of mental health, of which we kind of vacillate on, depending on the circumstances, our life, the stress, the pressures, the anxiety. And in the Bible, the further you go towards illness, there is a disintegration that takes place with you and your relationship with God with others, your community. And then the goal of Jesus always, for those characters, in particular in the Gospel, is to reintegrate them into the relationship with God, with their with others and their community. But it just, I think, for a lot of people, when I, when I hear them talk about mental health, they'd be like, Well, I don't have any problems. But they don't even know how to self diagnose. They don't know what symptoms to look for, like maybe they have high blood pressure, but they just think it's because they're not eating Cheerios, or rice or something. So they never make that connection. But would you say that it's appropriate to because for me as a theologian, if I see disintegration in a person's life, that, to me is a symptom, that there's some kind of, maybe I could call it mismanagement, of stress of mismanagement, or of what it is that's available to them with the tools we have as relievers. And that part of the remedy is integration. Absolutely.

Dr. Marty Harris

I think that just hearing your talk, think of functionality versus dysfunctionality, right? So the greater you lean towards dysfunctionality, you're going to have problems. And that actually is biblical, but it's also diagnostically important, the more dysfunction now that you have and one of those areas I talked about work faith, you know, school, family and and your faith. That's a dysfunctional thing. So you need to move away from that, because then all of the areas are going to be impacted. So you need to move away from disintegration do your best to move towards the healthier functioning side of your life, and there's no perfection. In your right Greg, it could be one day. We don't have stresses and problems and overly we do but we just keep anchoring towards at the very least them at all, and understand even using the worst parts of our dysfunctionality in a purposeful way, because as believers, there's reasons for

Gregg Garner 40:08

why we go through what we can me Can you expound on that? Sure,

Dr. Marty Harris

somebody who's suffering from a Great Depression, you know, and or loss, you know, grief, you know, there's an expectation that you should get depressed, you should get sad, but you should come out of it as well. And there's a pattern for grief, there's a lot of different patterns. One of them is typically six weeks, you expect to get into a grieving process where you'll be depressed. So if normal is right here, and I'm putting my hands over each other, and you fall below that, yeah, you're gonna get depressed. But after about six weeks, you should come out of it, and become an actually in a better state that you were before slightly better, because you've worked work through it. For many people, they may get depressed, and they stay there. And so they're in that disintegrative kind of concept that you're talking about. That's not healthy, it's not helpful to anybody. And they're just staying there, or they get stuck in a very deep depression for a longer period of time, that's not healthy. How can they truly serve God, or their family, their spouse, their children, if they stay in that disconnect, I've just seen

Gregg Garner 41:09

A lot of people, particularly the millennials, that I've observed that generation, their their modality is to disintegrate so that they can repair themselves. Jeff, you hinted on this, like, I need to take care of all these things before I write attached to my faith, but they will actually distance themselves and let other people know, they don't want to be bothered. They don't want any contact. They need this time. It's a season, they'll use terminology. But what I've noticed with these folks is seasons can last two years, that there is this breakdown in those relationships that they previously had, that are so severe, that they almost seem irreparable, because time has passed, and no time has been spent together. But then there's like this hypocrisy, because new relationships are developed. But those relationships seem superficial because they're controlled by the new controls that have been implemented by this person to maintain their isolation. Right. So have you seen any of this a little bit

Dr. Marty Harris

now? We talk about personality, and we talk about character, a logical traits, things that stay with a person. I think that there that's an individual, I think that there are generational personalities and generational character logical traits. And I don't want to ascribe it to any particular group. But yeah, I've seen it where they're, it's it's fix it quick, is they don't want to experience pain they'd rather run from it. And and I think there's some generational things there that, you know, we all three of us are a little bit older. So we come from a different generation. And so they're not used to experiencing or staying with pain, which we've we were taught to do, we come from our parents went to war, grandparents went to war. And we know it is a struggle and suffer and whatnot. And not that they don't, but they really haven't experienced, you know, an upbringing like that. So we know what it is to stay with pain to struggle with pain to grow from pain to learn from pain. And maybe a lot of them haven't had those experiences yet. And so I again, I see some of that, as well. And yeah, that impacts how they do it. And then because it's characterological because it's a personality trait that just does go away, you can't change overnight, what they tend to do is there's a pattern there, where they'll have these relationships, they'll distance themselves, they established new ones, and the cycle repeats, right? So they're not going to have those deep, long standing relationships that you and I have with friends that we've known for years, you know, so, but for some I don't want to ascribe it.

Gregg Garner 43:40

Yeah, I've seen some of that. Yeah. Yeah, this is this is phenomenal. We have a couple more minutes. Jeff, I knew you had a series of questions, and you have so many things. Yeah. So I want to I want to give you that opportunity to hear before we close out.

Jeff Sherrod 43:54

Yeah, I'm thinking about college students, you know, and showing up on campus and just even the the implicit benefit that's going to happen by showing up on campus and having this community that's going to do things. Um, it seems like one of the benefits that has happened with the move towards more mental health exposure is that some of its been de stigmatized. Yeah, I think that's seems really positive. At the same time, I wonder if there is an over reliance on college students for professional mental health experts, instead of just saying like, you know, you kind of say at the beginning, like, hey, there's, there's work as believers that we can help each other with? Do you do you think that that's happening too often, like where you're telling college students like, hey, just, there's other help here besides professional help?

Dr. Marty Harris

So I think yes, I just want to qualify that. I think we need more psychologists on college campuses and more therapists and whatnot. But there's other things you can do other than having to see a psychologist. I think there are prophylactic type of trainings that we can provide prevention, workshops and trainings that we should be doing regularly. And it doesn't have to be from a psychologist, how do you prevent stress during finals week? You know, what are the signs and symptoms of feeling lonely? Why do kids leave us? Oftentimes it's because they feel isolated from their family, how do we help them with that? So doing prevention stuff isn't a psychologist is just doing more of that's really important, right? If I had a group of students in front of me, I call them kids could never be less than half my age. I teach them a couple of things about responsibility. So, you know, you're in charge of your thoughts, for the most part, right? They're your thoughts, you're in charge of your feelings, and 100% of all of your behavior. So whether it's emotional things or problems that they get into trouble, you've got to do that. And then I also teach them you have no control of somebody else's thoughts, feelings, or behavior. And you have to own that. And that's hard for people it is that's hard for people, even for leadership and whatnot, I tell them, there are no manipulators truly in this world if you're an adult, and if you're, you know, children can be but for adults, there are only people that allow themselves to be manipulated. You've got to take ownership of your thoughts and your feelings and behavior, your behavior, and it's going to help you it's just a simple tool to remind you. A lot of this in relationships. We all know this. We know kids, we've had kids, they're struggling in their religion, they're 18 two brains aren't fully developed yet. In Australia. He's making he's such a manipulator. She's such a no, you just allow us. You know, he called me at two o'clock in the morning, every night for the last night, he will disconnect your phone, you know, throw it away, you know, do things that you you,

Gregg Garner 46:23

things you can do. That's a stop. That's right, what it is that is invading your health.

Dr. Marty Harris

And I see more and more younger people. So we talked about that generation, where they do kind of externally blame everybody else. Yeah, starting to say, I need to take some responsibility. Right, as I start my journey at this question.

Gregg Garner 46:42

Yeah, there is there is like victims mentality that's often empathized with, yeah, social media is filled with people who are just looking for someone to empathize with what is going wrong with them. And I one time I saw a strange strand of responses, and this person was just like, just trying to get everybody to understand how bad it is to be depressed, and how hard it is for them. And somebody chimes in and starts telling them some things they can do. Like it was simple was like, take some walks, get out in the sun, the rest of everybody on comments, which is bashing this person, for not sitting with them in their their pain and their struggle and empathizing with them. Like, why are you trying to tell them? And I was kind of shocked with? I mean, literally, you're talking about the next 100 comments are getting onto this person for telling the person on the video, hey, get outside, take a walk, get some sunshine,

Jeff Sherrod 47:40

I'm really super suggesting anything.

Dr. Marty Harris

And I'm more on the side of you know it, where it's appropriate to tell them you're in the desert, because you want to be in the desert, you want to get out. Here's the thing.

Gregg Garner 47:49

Yeah. And if you said that, on that, yeah, comment stream, you and everybody would think you were the worst, you would have gotten canceled. Pastors

Dr. Marty Harris

are actually pretty thick skinned. And they want practical, yeah, help, that's gonna really help it. And some of them will ignore me. And some of the bits, they really would like to know, hey, what part of it is me? And you tell them? Look, this is what you can do. If you choose not to do it, then you're gonna stay in the desert? Yeah, let's get out of the desert. Here's some steps we

Gregg Garner 48:14

need. We need better models out there that are more readily available for young people. Because again, the models that they have are like this scenario I just described, basically people without the tools to manage their circumstances so that they can have an optimized version of their health. They just don't, they don't have them. And so they're out there, telling people, this is what I'm doing. This is my truth. And then young people are seeing that as what's available to them as an option. Yeah, but the other options, like what you're describing today, just aren't readily made available for young people. And I do think that colleges have a responsibility, as you said, to ensure that therapists are available and that but even more so that maybe there there needs to be more psych psychology implemented into the administrative efforts of collegiate institutions. Like for example, we just had a meeting with our students. It was after they got off work, it was started, would we start 9pm The night before you got the know when you got here the night you got here? Yeah. And part of our meeting was to contend with three scenarios that we saw come up one, we noticed that there there was high levels of stress that students are experiencing because of finals and, and the resolve was, we got teachers to move the deadline for their papers. We help them to understand that. I mean, it was simple. You guys can calculate what grades you'd like to have and these makeup assignments. You don't have to do them. And you don't have to feel like you're a bad Christian. If you don't do it, like we did simple things that I'm sure at the end they were so relieved. And they were so happy. We talked about a few other things, but to me that was be an example of in making consideration for the mental health of your constituency. And then administratively acting outside of being professional there. Right? I

Dr. Marty Harris

think I wasn't there. But I'm assuming you also empower them to communicate their concerns. Oh, yeah. Right. For sure. That's one of the best things that was

Gregg Garner 50:18

during the testimony of one of our students, Blake, he, that was his thing. At the end. He's like, you know, I always feel bad. Feeling like if I said something about my concern it, he even said, it would make me feel like I'm complaining Christian or something like that. He's like, tonight, I just, I've heard it before, but I feel like God said it in my heart, he goes, I feel safe to be able to just say that

Dr. Marty Harris

in the complaint. And the other thing, just real quickly, a lot of small Christian schools like our, our school and your school, yeah, may not have the resources for a psychiatrist or a therapist, whatever. But those preventative workshops I could do, or somebody else could do, or we can share that and say, Okay, we're gonna have a zoom session with Dr. Harris, on this date, and provide an overview of what it is to come to school and emotionally and whatnot, we can work together without any cost in terms of providing resources for students. That isn't psychology.

Gregg Garner 51:09

It absolutely is. Yeah. And if and if somebody wanted to reach out to you, how could they get ahold of you? What's your website?

Dr. Marty Harris

So we're, I'm at www.labi.edu. And you can find me instantly perfectly. If there's a pastor out there a church leader, I don't care if they're in Tennessee or Timbuktu. Yeah, if they need some help, I'll do my best to help them and maybe it'll be corresponded. And

Gregg Garner 51:30

He's telling the truth, people here this is this is not a ploy. He's telling the truth. Yeah.

Dr. Marty Harris

Reach out to me. Because if I can bless and invest in you, I'm gonna bless all the people that you're going to be working with. So if you're a pastor, church leader, if you have some questions, oftentimes that's what it is how to medications, work habits, and it hasn't works. What are the most common? What are the side effects? It's an area of expertise of mine. I can do my best to do the research and provide that information to you.

Gregg Garner 51:54

Amazing, amazing. Dr. Marty, thank you. Yeah. Thank you some really appreciate you. And I think that this is a must hear episode. Yeah. And I know everyone listening has been blessed. God bless you. God bless.

Jeff Sherrod 52:11

Thanks for listening to college conversations. If you have ideas for the podcast, including topics or guests, or even just questions you might have, we would love to hear them. Contact us using the link in the show notes. Thanks and God bless