Summary: In a life of ministry, teachers, pastors, and facilitators make choices every day on what type of behavior is permissible and what is not. What should guide our efforts? How do you implement the grace of God, while not losing control of the program you’re a part of? What does discipline teach to a student or individual within your group?

[00:00:06.24] - Jeff Sherrod

Hey, everyone, and welcome back to College Conversations. I'm your host, Jeff Sherrod. I am joined today with the president of the Institute for GOD, Gregg Garner, and Laurie Kagay, who is the VP of marketing and enrollment at the institute, also professor as well. In this episode, we're talking about a topic that I think hits at a lot of people that want to do ministry that are currently in ministry. This fact that all of us want to be people that care, show mercy and grace. And at the same time, what we're talking about today is when does mercy, care, and grace maybe push a little bit too far and it becomes coddling? When does all the good things that we want to do for the other person actually maybe hinder their development? We're talking about this topic and much more in this episode. I hope you guys enjoy the show all. So we've been called to be empathetic, to weep with those who weep, laugh with those who laugh. Called to be compassionate, loving people. And at the Same time, Ephesians 4 tells us that we're supposed to train and equip people, preparing people to do God's work of service so that we can all reach the maturity as we grow up into him, who is the head of Christ. And I know that for you guys, as you guys listen to both of those things, there's no contradiction that's happening in your head. But I do think that's kind of what I want to talk about, maybe a perceived sense of contradiction between those two ideas. So to frame the question just like this, how do we know when we are coddling in an unhealthy way or caring in a biblical way? And so that's what I'm looking for for today's conversation. So maybe just starting out with a couple definitions. This is from Jonathan Haidt and Greg Lukanoff, who wrote Coddling of the American Mime. They define coddling as overprotectiveness of people, particularly young people, in ways that shields them from discomfort, challenges, and opposing viewpoints. And then Eric Geiger, he was writing about coddling from, like, a Christian perspective, and he marked it through three different ways. Dumbing down the message, specifically, dumbing down God's word, ignoring the broader world and limiting risk. And so maybe there's some strands that kind of connect those two definitions together. Maybe we'll just kind of start there, though. Anything stand out in those definitions once you guys are thinking about coddling?

[00:02:27.12] - Gregg Garner

Oh, sounds good to me. That sounds like coddling.

[00:02:29.87] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, I think that. I do think this is helpful. So maybe we can just start with the first part of it. If someone's like, how do we start with a biblical definition of empathy? Like, what would you, what do you guys. How would we start with this topic? What would you guys go to?

[00:02:46.12] - Laurie Kagay

And I think we, we were talking about this topic because I think our culture maybe is trending towards a more like, towards pressuring people to be empathetic generally. So it's like there's some maybe pressure in the world that people need to show empathy or show acceptance to people. But then there's got to be a biblical definition that is set apart from just the general. I accept anything you're going through.

[00:03:14.97] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. So it means essentially not taking a position at all. And it's like live and let live. That's. You're saying that's a cultural, cultural perspective on, on empathy.

[00:03:23.84] - Gregg Garner

Do you think people are even. Are people even using the term empathy? Are they just using very broad terms like kindness? Nice.

[00:03:31.96] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, I think probably more like that.

[00:03:34.25] - Gregg Garner

Like I want to see kind people in the world. And kind means what you're defining as empathetic, right?

[00:03:42.59] - Jeff Sherrod

I think it could be. And we, I mean, kindness is mentioned throughout the Bible as well. So we could even. There's probably a list of these kind of semantically related.

[00:03:52.80] - Gregg Garner

I think what I'd want to say about defining something biblically is that the Bible doesn't provide definitions. The Bible is not a lexicon, it's not a dictionary. You have to synthesize definitions based upon learning to read the text. So in the same way, in. So one of the, one of the tasks of a law student is that they have to be able to identify how rules were created based upon the analysis of cases that are analogous to precedent cases, of which then through the series of reading various cases, they can synthesize some rule or new understanding of how it is the existing rule could apply to an analogous situation. So the defining of a term is something that they have to do, but it's a result of knowing how to compare pre existing narratives and the rules that were generated from the or principles that were generated from those narratives. And I think remembering that in Jesus's day, the lawyers were not just guys looking at the Constitution of Israel in the same way we look at the Constitution of the United States. They were looking at the Torah, they were actually looking at the Bible. And these lawyers were trying to make sense of how the Bible applies to the daily practice of the Jewish community. So for us today, when it comes to application of scripture to daily life, I do not think that people are actually utilizing the Bible to synthesize their definitions. They're more often utilizing the Christian subculture that they're a part of to affirm their sense of rightness. And that becomes such the case that when a person does synthesize a biblical definition based upon a series of readings, if it does not support that presupposition that came from the culture, it's just easy to say, well, they have a bad reading. Or they're not like us. They're a different denomination. They're as if it's not all the same Bible we're dealing with. Isn't it interesting? The Bible should be the thing that unifies us all and gets us on the same page and humbles us all into going. It doesn't matter what denomination you're part of or theological philosophy that you have characterizing your collective ideas as a group, really, it should be about what the scripture states and regardless of what part of you're a part of. How do you read it? Just like Jesus would ask, it's not like that. Is it?

[00:06:47.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:06:47.70] - Gregg Garner

It's like a person has a different definition or different reading, and people go, well, that's not us, therefore it's wrong.

[00:06:54.01] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:06:55.05] - Gregg Garner

Or that's not us. If you're taking, like, the more positive things. So it doesn't apply to us. But when you say a biblical definition, I. I have to start with saying there is no direct biblical definition.

[00:07:09.58] - Jeff Sherrod

Be awesome if there was, it would.

[00:07:12.73] - Laurie Kagay

Or thank God that there's not.

[00:07:14.06] - Gregg Garner

It's like, go ahead. Well, I just know that for Jesus, he could have said the kingdom of God is this. Yeah, he just told us what it is, but he never did. He had to use metaphor. Simile. The kingdom of God is like. The kingdom of God is like. The kingdom of God is like. And then on the other side of the like would be a story.

[00:07:31.30] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, right.

[00:07:31.88] - Gregg Garner

A narrative. And our culture continues to shift away from making sense of life based on narratives that communicate principles. And we do want prescriptive definitions and rules. Or in a more thoughtless scenario, we just want people to utilize the vernacular that's given to us by our culture in the way it's defined by our culture. And that's when you have people who teach the Bible who are trying to be relevant. They're trying to figure out ways of saying biblical truth with popular vernacular, which seems to me to be the complete opposite of what we're supposed to be doing to the world we live in. We're supposed to be illuminating it, bringing light to it and, and flavor to it through a distinctive taste. We're not supposed to be making sense of it.

[00:08:34.48] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:08:34.80] - Gregg Garner

In that way. So yeah, no definition. And I think the other, the other element that I would add to that is while terms like kindness and while I don't think empathy exists in the Bible at all, you'd have to find a synonym for like, like the word for compassion.

[00:08:53.16] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:08:54.04] - Gregg Garner

Do you know, are you aware of the word empathy actually being lexically in the Bible?

[00:08:57.85] - Jeff Sherrod

I don't know.

[00:08:58.42] - Gregg Garner

Yeah, I don't think it is.

[00:08:59.09] - Laurie Kagay

I can't think of a single one.

[00:09:00.12] - Gregg Garner

I mean, we'd probably need to fact check that. Yeah, hey, department back there, send us the results, but I don't think it is. So even at that point, we're having to recognize that there's going to be some anachronistic consideration into the term, meaning that we have our own definition of what empathy is based upon what our dictionaries tell us and our culture communicates to us. But it may not be a value in the Bible. And we can do that thing that sometimes people do. Well, they didn't. It's almost like saying, well, they didn't have empathy back in those days, so they didn't talk about it. Things have changed. But yeah, that's not the position we're gonna take. So yeah, that's where I go with the definition conversation.

[00:09:45.71] - Jeff Sherrod

So I think that maybe I'll bring up a story and we can kind of talk about. Because I do want to try to tease out in a helpful way people that are doing ministry or they're trying to get into ministry. Compassion is promoted. That's something we want everyone to have. But maybe when does that compassion turn into coddling? Coddling? Yeah. We were talking to some students who help run an after school program for a local middle school. We being, me and Lori the other day and they were dealing with, you know, they had this student who, they have a three strike system. They had the student who they were like, you know, well, we don't want to give them any strikes because what if we have to dismiss this student and he ends up feeling like we've abandoned him and God's abandoned him. And you know, they took all this pressure on themselves and they're like, but he's a total distraction and we should have dismissed this guy a long time ago. You know, at this point they didn't have any records. They couldn't do it. You know, they didn't do any strikes for him. But we got to talk to him and it's like, you know, this, I think, is a form of coddling. You know, you're essentially saying, we think that we're going to act in your best interest by being protective of you so you don't receive any consequences, or so that there's no discipline. But in the end, they're not going to learn anything from this. And you think that you're doing, like, something that's going to come off compassionate, but it's not necessarily going to be received that way. So I think that that's where sometimes I think people get into Christian ministry and they're trying to ask, like, you know, when does it stop?

[00:11:16.12] - Laurie Kagay

I think it really surprised the students. Like, Jeff's response was like, well, if you don't, like, if you don't give them any consequences of their behavior, you already have given up on them to some degree. And they were. It just kind of. They were like, I didn't know we could, you know, like, show compassion and help them to see, like, the reality.

[00:11:37.02] - Gregg Garner

I think a lot's being put on the students and it shouldn't be. Now, I don't know about how the organization of the program is that they're working in to the detail, but this is why you have to institute policy and procedure.

[00:11:55.28] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:11:55.76] - Gregg Garner

And this is why you're not cool when you don't implement, because policy and procedures set in place to protect the person. The Bible will teach us that the coming of Christ was not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. Right. Jesus did not come to just say, law's over, policies are over, the rules are over. He came so he could help us make sense of how to live it out.

[00:12:23.60] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah, Right.

[00:12:25.60] - Gregg Garner

But sometimes people's perception of spiritual maturity, because they'll read Paul and they'll read with Paul that the law was like a tutor, was like a shadow of things to come. So now the real spiritual person does not need the law, and they could just be like this spiritually discerning person. But they fail to read the totality of Paul's argument, which then states, the spiritual person fulfills the law in and of itself. So you take a young person that's in the situation, if. If the prescriptive expectations or the policies are clear enough to say, if a student behaves like this in any of these ways, that's a strike. And there are three strikes. They're out. The person should just implement it. The young person needs to do it. But what's interfering with their ability to adhere to the policy expectations Sounds like compassion Turned coddling.

[00:13:26.08] - Laurie Kagay

Right, yeah, that's what we thought too.

[00:13:27.87] - Gregg Garner

The safeguard is, is the policy.

[00:13:29.46] - Laurie Kagay

Because I even told them, I was like, it's by you not following the protocol, you're actually going beyond your bounds as the employee because you should.

[00:13:38.25] - Gregg Garner

That person now needs reviewed by a supervisor and needs disciplined because they're not only, as you intimated, they may not only be causing an issue with the student themselves, but now they're potentially negatively impacting the culture of the organization itself. Where now other students feel that they should have some personal autonomy as to when they implement discipline.

[00:14:08.10] - Laurie Kagay

Right.

[00:14:08.77] - Gregg Garner

Rather than recognizing there are prescriptive expectations. So back to the Bible and the law argument. It's important for us to learn the laws of God because it gives us our starting points, it gives us our baseline considerations. But it's not enough to just stop there. That's why Jesus would say, you have heard it said, you shall not murder. But let's go deeper on this. If you even have conflict with your brother, this paves the road towards how things like murder happen.

[00:14:43.63] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:14:44.25] - Gregg Garner

So. And he gives things for people to consider. Now I know some people in a misinterpretation of the, of the Sermon on the Mount will, will say that Jesus is. Either they'll just go completely cultural evangelical on it and just turn into you broke one, you broke them all kind of salvation type thing, or they'll say that Jesus is saying that the Old Testament and the law is no longer applicable. The new law is actually so hard to follow that even, even you'd have to pluck out your eye if it caused you less. So therefore you'll never be able to uphold the expectations of the law. That's why you need Christ.

[00:15:19.36] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:15:20.52] - Gregg Garner

And while there is some truth to that, it doesn't eliminate the need for us to learn how to implement the law of God into our day to day lives. And the spiritual person is going to be the kind of person that goes into the depth of consideration that Jesus wants. I think we can all agree that once you've murdered someone, it's too late.

[00:15:43.67] - Jeff Sherrod

Oh yeah.

[00:15:44.37] - Gregg Garner

So murdering someone, if that's the rule, thou shalt not murder. Like there's so much margin between not murdering and murdering.

[00:15:53.95] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah.

[00:15:54.33] - Gregg Garner

Like you, you have to, you have to start helping people to understand when the slope begins towards the kind of foreseeable issue like a murder could take place. And policy in an organization should be created as a result of the aggregate or collected wisdom of the people who crafted the policy to prevent something like that from happening. But when You're a young person and you're there. You don't get how all this stuff comes together. So rules just feel like restrictions. And if the Gospel is breaking us free from the rules and the law, then I have freedom in Christ. And now freedom in Christ usually becomes, how do I culturally perceive right and wrong? Right now you've taken ethics away from Scripture and you've put it into the personal autonomy and perspective of an individual who is not Christ and is still growing into Christ. So you mentioned Ephesians 4. That's the whole point of Ephesians 4. Right. That children are incapable of sticking to a decision because they aren't connected to the head and they haven't matured. So they're like waves, they're fickle, they're just like in and out, they vacillate, they're tossed. They hear one thing and they go with that. Hear another thing, they go with that. So this is indicative of the kind of immaturity that should not characterize the body of Christ that is doing the work of ministry. Therefore, leadership has to equip them. Ephesians 4, 11, and 12 has to equip them so that they are able to do that work of ministry, which includes building up the body of Christ. And it's supposed to happen until they reach a unity in their faith and knowledge of the Son of God. Unity of faith requires you to have conversations with other people to understand your faith. A young person then needs to. So let me applaud the. The young people talking with you about this.

[00:18:11.34] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:18:11.81] - Gregg Garner

Because they're trying to find their faith in it. Right, Right. And so to be able to promote to them, for us to be unified in our faith here requires you to humble yourself. Just like Paul the Apostle or James or even Jesus would give the advice, don't think of yourself higher than you ought to. Paul would say that the mind of Christ would even have you esteeming others better than yourself. But in this context, it's like I'm working an after school program. I've been assigned to implement a strike system based upon these violations. At that point, let that mind exist outside of you. It's time to implement in obedience and humble yourself, recognizing there are people who put this system together who probably know things I don't. And I just, I need to learn through implementation. Otherwise you're actually sabotaging the effort to give the kids on the other side of those strikes the best chance at development.

[00:19:15.45] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:19:16.04] - Gregg Garner

So using your example, in my observation, coddling comes when a person takes it upon themselves to adjudicate a situation according to their own mind. And the coddling happens because the, the person ultimately just isn't sure what needs to be done. And so the lack of action creates the space for the, let's say that student that should have received a strike. The lack of action and the passing of time brings an end like a limitation. That's why in law we use statutes of limitation. Right. Like too much time has passed, it's hard to remember everything that happened. It's hard for the person to feel that what they did was relevant or why didn't you bring it up earlier? So now not implementing the rule on the spot, putting it on yourself now is just damaging the entire effort. And the coddling now exists because it teaches the student on the other side of that discipline that should have been invoked. It teaches them that the world works with ambiguity to the degree that I just need to find the right person to complain to, all my problems go away and they will fix it.

[00:20:48.29] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah.

[00:20:48.92] - Gregg Garner

Instead of recognizing that. Because ultimately, if you don't want to be a part of a system, get out. Don't work for that business, don't work for that company, don't work for that after school program, get out of it. If you don't think that's the thing you need to do, don't do it. But there's too much of this, like, I don't know, because some of these students, like they told you, might actually believe they're doing the kid a favor.

[00:21:16.02] - Laurie Kagay

Well, I think that's what we were seeing because even other students around them were responding like, oh, like you're saying it's part of our Christianity to enforce some discipline. We were like, yeah. And they were, you know, but their reaction was, I think, telling of the kind of cultural assumptions that they had where they felt they were doing something great by withholding, you know, what was set out for them. Yeah. But then, yeah. So it just made us think like.

[00:21:47.00] - Jeff Sherrod

I think that's all also a key feature of coddling. It doesn't lead to maturation. Like, we're not going to see that kid on the other end have this kind of like passivity, which is, you know, hopefully interpreted as grace, but this kid will not understand it as grace. And then suddenly they're going to be like, that person was, my leaders were so kind to me and I could have been kicked out, but they didn't kick me out and I'm going to change my ways.

[00:22:12.00] - Gregg Garner

In my experience, it feels like most of the time it comes back around to become a very negative issue.

[00:22:20.45] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:22:20.74] - Gregg Garner

You don't deal with it because situations don't fix themselves. Discipline according to Hebrews 12. I think you, you both know the text discipline not acted upon or not implemented is a sign of illegitimacy between a relationship that God would have with someone that's considered to be his child.

[00:22:44.41] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:22:44.93] - Gregg Garner

So he's saying like the, if you're a legitimate child and the father really loves you, the implementation of discipline will characterize you. Coming up.

[00:22:56.19] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:22:56.44] - Gregg Garner

And yes, it's painful, but it can produce something good.

[00:23:00.70] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:23:02.50] - Gregg Garner

So if you are responsible for kids in a classroom and you don't implement discipline and you recognize you're a minister of the gospel trying to advance the name of Christ and you're concerned they're going to look at God wrong, you're already giving them a bad impression of God anyways because God loves him as a father, he's going to discipline him.

[00:23:21.61] - Jeff Sherrod

Right? Yeah.

[00:23:22.67] - Gregg Garner

So they're, Yeah, I think the sociology is off.

[00:23:25.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Right, right.

[00:23:26.06] - Gregg Garner

And they're now presenting a god that's not God.

[00:23:29.20] - Laurie Kagay

Right.

[00:23:29.79] - Gregg Garner

That should be the wake up call.

[00:23:31.11] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:23:31.57] - Gregg Garner

For young people. They should be like, oh my gosh, what gospel am I promoting? What Christ am I, you know, amplifying?

[00:23:38.09] - Jeff Sherrod

Let me another question. We're all college administrators, you know, we've dealt with situations where students have clearly broken rules. And then we set up like, all right, here's another threshold. And sometimes students have passed those and we've had to still come together and be like, all right, let's evaluate this, you know, even. And so what's the role of making an exception in all this? And you know, I don't want to just ask, when does an exception turn into coddling?

[00:24:03.25] - Gregg Garner

But, you know, but I think, I think this is a good question because an exception can only exist if a rule is clear.

[00:24:13.11] - Laurie Kagay

Right?

[00:24:13.49] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Right.

[00:24:14.16] - Gregg Garner

And in a culture where the rules aren't pronounced and not enforced, it's hard to make an exception. And there should be reason for exception. Right. So if you have a situation in this case where a student may need an exception, there should be some prescribed criteria for what qualifies for exception. You have to remove it again from the autonomy of the individual student especially. Okay, so we're talking about a lot of things. Yeah, we are in this scenario here. We're talking about even the hierarchy in the organization of that after school program. We're talking about like low, low level workers on the hierarchy structure. Right. These guys are just supposed to be implementing policy. They're not directors.

[00:25:04.03] - Laurie Kagay

Right.

[00:25:04.47] - Gregg Garner

Or managers even. They're just implementers. So they should be implementing the policies and rules, which includes other policies that trigger exception. Now, if these people up here haven't made all of that clear, that's part of the issue. Yeah, right, Right. And that's why sometimes we have misimpressions of organizations, because maybe people at the top. I know I've experienced this in my career. Who it is that I know we are as an organization hasn't sometimes found its way into implementation. Because the gap between maybe some of the original people involved and the high context of growing something together created implicit rules that were never, never became explicit.

[00:25:59.28] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:25:59.95] - Gregg Garner

So that now next generations of people working in that are expected to have the same high context conviction for how things work, but were never introduced to it. And then neither did they get prescriptive rules that were very clear. So in this case, with this program, I don't know what's going on there, but I know that when it comes to our faith and who we are in Christ, God has gone out of his way to make his word available to us. And what I mean by that is, throughout history, we know that there are people who have literally given their lives over to ensuring we have a scripture that we can read in front of us, like literally martyred.

[00:26:38.53] - Jeff Sherrod

Oh, yeah.

[00:26:39.11] - Gregg Garner

To make that happen. So we have a biblical text that gives us ways of understanding rules and then gives us ways of understanding how to implement grace, which is the exception, Right? Yeah. Mercy. The exception. But it gets triggered by certain things. So Jesus is asked about divorce, and he says, you know, Moses had to give it to you guys because you're stubborn, and so you're allowed to write a certificate of divorce. And then he highlights the. The exception for. For triggering that agreement outside of people's stubbornness, which I think today would be a court filing that says irreconcilable conflict or something like that. Right. That's the stubbornness element. But he highlights frequent infidelity.

[00:27:26.63] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:27:27.23] - Gregg Garner

As. As a justified reason for that certificate. Certificate of divorce. There's the exception. Right. It exists there with an explicit communication that triggers exception.

[00:27:39.11] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:27:39.39] - Laurie Kagay

Right.

[00:27:39.61] - Gregg Garner

But again, if you have these guys looking for that exception in themselves, now they're looking at that kid and they're like, it reminds me of my little brother. And I wish someone would have given.

[00:27:48.57] - Jeff Sherrod

Him a chance, given him one more shot.

[00:27:50.19] - Gregg Garner

Nobody gave him any shots.

[00:27:51.44] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, I. I feel like I just.

[00:27:53.88] - Gregg Garner

Want him to watch Patch Adams.

[00:27:56.01] - Jeff Sherrod

Oh, yeah. I love Patch Adams.

[00:27:58.10] - Gregg Garner

I mean, but the ending you saw it coming right. You're like, I don't remember her name. Didn't she also play Jenny in Forrest Gump? I don't know. I feel like they're all the same character. Anyways, she. Oh, she went on to play the mom on Parenthood. Huh. But anyways, she. I felt so bad for her. It's like, that's a creepy dude. Patch. Don't let him work with you. He's not following the rules. Patch, There are rules on purpose to prevent these things. They shouldn't be working after hours like this. Patch. Those rules are created and the tragedy strikes because of that. I don't know what we would call it. Optimism, maybe naivety. And I think the younger we are because we don't have enough disciplinary experiences. One of the things that Jesus will teach is either you're going to humble yourself into the obedience to what God wants, or life will hit you in such a way it breaks you into pieces and you find yourself humbled.

[00:28:51.85] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, right.

[00:28:52.65] - Gregg Garner

Another way of. So that would come through. Jesus would say, whoever exalts himself is going to be humbled. And then Peter would highlight like, either you're going to be broken by the rock or the rock's going to be broken on top of you. That's where I'm synthesizing those things. But when you hear that from Scripture, it puts us in a position to recognize that we're either going to learn through the implementation of God's policy, His Word and his rules, and over the course of time, see why those were beneficial, see why the law is good and holy and just. Just like Timothy or Paul said. Timothy. Or we're going to lift ourselves up, not do that, make ourselves above those rules, and then experience the pain of the consequence of not doing something that was a wisdom that existed outside of us. That's why I brought up Patch Adams. Right. Like you. And it usually comes from people who are trying to do something different, who are trying to do something revolutionary, or we want to be the change that we want to see kind of thing. But they're. They're. They're just naive.

[00:30:04.21] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:30:04.71] - Gregg Garner

About how it all works.

[00:30:05.80] - Jeff Sherrod

And there's some pride in this. In this conception that I can, in my own self, be more compassionate than God. You know, like God's word. That's too much. Or the rules that have been laid out. That's too harsh. But I can do this better. You know, there's some.

[00:30:21.74] - Gregg Garner

Do you think people are direct about that, or do you think they have creative ways of saying it? Like that's the God of the Old Testament, but the God of the New Testament is empathetic.

[00:30:29.40] - Jeff Sherrod

I think we do creative ways. I don't think anyone's. But I think, yeah, but hopefully when they get presented with the case, they're like, all right, let me at least, like you said, pause and be like, God's word just does this better. It has a better system for it. You said something I wanted to revisit. You mentioned that. I mentioned this phenomenon that can sometimes happen where grace is given, but it maybe is not explicit, and then people can turn it back to a negative experience where maybe. I just wanted to hear a little bit more about that. Like, what do you think is happening?

[00:30:58.08] - Gregg Garner

Paul, Apostle makes the argument that people have developed into a theological conversational point called cheap grace. Right.

[00:31:04.94] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:31:05.34] - Gregg Garner

Where it's the idea that people have received the grace of God, but they didn't value it. They didn't realize that it came at the cost. And the cost that we want to expressly communicate in the Romans context would be like the life of Jesus. So should we continue falling short so that grace would abound? By no means. That grace is. Is something that. That costs the one offering it.

[00:31:25.85] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:31:26.40] - Gregg Garner

Like God. God is putting his reputation on the line every time he continues to approve of us and give us grace. So we're supposed to grow. And I think in a situation like that, a person needs to recognize you're putting yourself out there when you offer that grace. But if the person's not conscious of it, they'll continue in it. They'll just. They will. They'll be happy with grace abounding because you're a gracious person. Now, I'm speaking this out of experience. There's so many years, and I can't even say I've gotten this down now, but I'm definitely more conscious of it. But there are so many years where I did not implement probably a function of discipline or restriction that should have happened, but neither did I make the person aware of that kind of grace extended to them. And I even found that the thing they faulted in became my fault.

[00:32:30.85] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:32:31.41] - Gregg Garner

Because I was responsible. So let's just take it practical. I have somebody that's working with me to handle, I don't know, a travel itinerary. Right. And in the travel itinerary, the they. Everybody was gathered at the airport very early in the morning to go on a trip. But turns out the person who made the travel itinerary made a mistake. The flight wasn't gonna leave for 12 hours. So they're there 12 hours early. They missed read an a.m. a p.m. for an a.m. oops. And now you've got 150 kids all there 12 hours early, and you gotta figure this out, right? So this. I then would apply grace to that person and say, we'll figure this out, work it out, fix the problem. Right? But there's no.

[00:33:16.92] - Jeff Sherrod

And it feels obvious in that moment that someone's gonna be like, all right, I'm sure they felt that internally and they felt the grace, Right?

[00:33:23.91] - Gregg Garner

But what I learned is that not only do they not feel it, but other people now, because they saw you intervening to fix things, come to think of the scenario as your mistake. So it's, it's, it's. It goes with, like, he who had no sin became sin itself. Like, Jesus took on the sin of the world. Like, he took culpability for all of our shortcomings. And it's not because he was just, like, taking on punishment. Like, God has all this wrath and he needs to put it out on somebody. There's his son. Get him. It's not like that. It's that the grace of God is so powerful that he is willing to take on those of us who fall short to the degree that we are. We are causing harm. And, and even he's gonna, like, entangle his reputation with us so that now people look at us and if. And if we are falling short and it's. It's publicly affecting and negatively impacting people, like, they're gonna look at God too. And he's. He's taking that on. He's taking on our sin.

[00:34:40.67] - Jeff Sherrod

Right?

[00:34:41.15] - Gregg Garner

In that way.

[00:34:41.69] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:34:42.28] - Gregg Garner

So grace is something God's made available. Not as a permanent solution for our shortcomings, though it's always available. And if people aren't listening to me, well, here, they're going to get confused. Let me say this again. Grace is not the thing that God wants in abundance. In the growing life of a believer, should we continue falling short or sinning so that grace would abound? By no means. Certainly not. So that means that, like, we have to change. We have to mature. And as we mature and change in certain areas of our lives, we won't need that kind of grace. So now you look at, like a young person who's getting into a field and there's needs for them to be disciplined. You have to implement the discipline, otherwise how will they continue?

[00:35:36.69] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:35:37.46] - Gregg Garner

To grow and minimize the gap on grace. You can't expect a person to improve in an area if you're not Explicit about it, even though you sometimes. And this is the mistake I'm highlighting in my experience is like, it seems so obvious.

[00:35:51.36] - Jeff Sherrod

How could they not see it?

[00:35:52.28] - Gregg Garner

Yeah, but they don't.

[00:35:53.36]- Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:35:54.07] - Gregg Garner

Because you have to open their eyes to it. So Paul, apostle says, you know, I didn't even, I didn't know a lot of things. He's like, but then when the law came, my eyes were open.

[00:36:05.67] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, that's a great sin.

[00:36:06.75] - Gregg Garner

Came alive and I died. So the very thing that God sends to save actually kills. He's not trying to say the law is a bad thing.

[00:36:17.42] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:36:17.82] - Gregg Garner

He's highlighting that the law and the enforcement of the law, or the rules or the policies is to help us understand our shortcomings so that we can not cheaply, but with thanksgiving, receive the grace of God. Thank you, Lord, for not, not firing me, not putting me away. But you're right, I need to change. So when Jesus offers grace, like for the woman caught in the very act of adultery, his, you know, where are those who condemn you? No, they're not here. Well, neither do I condemn you. Go and stop this sin. No more change. So grace was provided. Discipline was also put. I mean, that was a hard situation.

[00:36:59.84] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:37:00.32] - Gregg Garner

That she was in. But, you know, at the end of that, the expectation is grow, change. But it's hard for people to grow if you're not explicit. And this has been such a hard lesson for me to learn as a leader and a boss. And I'm telling you, it's just in the last few years that it started to really hit. Because in the end, it's just not good for anybody.

[00:37:24.30] - Jeff Sherrod

I'm just asking, maybe, personally, do you think that the challenge for you was what we talked about? Like, I assume that they got it, or is it just, is it the difficulty of having a conversation to.

[00:37:34.76] - Gregg Garner

Maybe a combination of both. Yeah, maybe a combination of both.

[00:37:38.23] - Jeff Sherrod

I, I, I, Because I know that I can be uncomfortable for me too.

[00:37:40.69] - Gregg Garner

I think also when the students talk about the reputation of God, that also weighs heavy on you.

[00:37:45.07] - Jeff Sherrod

Right?

[00:37:45.28] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. God is gracious, he's merciful. He doesn't hold these things against us. He doesn't remember wrongs. Like, you have all these things that God's like and you want to be like that, but you may not implement the way that God intends you to implement, which includes conviction. We will say, the Holy Spirit convicted me of that. We even use the word conviction. But when you say a court of law convicted this person, it's the same exact word.

[00:38:13.80] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. We don't think about you don't think.

[00:38:15.13] - Gregg Garner

Of it in the same way. So the Holy Spirit convicting you sounds playful almost. I was convicted by the Holy Spirit. It was like a little prick on my soul.

[00:38:21.65] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. That's almost the word that I heard used, prick in my soul.

[00:38:25.26] - Gregg Garner

It's a conviction. You've been convicted, bro.

[00:38:27.61] - Jeff Sherrod

You're right.

[00:38:28.38] - Gregg Garner

You need to change. This is a conviction. You're about to be sentenced but for the grace of God.

[00:38:33.78] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. That's real.

[00:38:34.73] - Gregg Garner

And so. So now you've got to change so we don't even think about discipline. Conviction.

[00:38:39.94] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah.

[00:38:40.21] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:38:40.44] - Gregg Garner

So I just think that that, like, that was hard for me to figure out. Like, what a. What a. What a wild thing God's done to call us. To sit with him as heirs of the kingdom.

[00:38:50.80] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:38:51.59] - Gregg Garner

To be raised with Christ where he is and now implementing the type of judgments as leaders that are. Contribute to people's growth and development. Yeah, it's. It's a big.

[00:39:04.34] - Jeff Sherrod

It's a huge responsibility.

[00:39:05.50] - Gregg Garner

Responsibility. And we, too have learning curves.

[00:39:08.90] - Jeff Sherrod

Yep.

[00:39:10.21] - Gregg Garner

So, you know, all the more better for people to get engaged in conversations like the one we're having at earlier ages so they can start to think about that.

[00:39:18.07] - Jeff Sherrod

Let me. Let me ask this.

[00:39:19.21] - Gregg Garner

If.

[00:39:19.57] - Jeff Sherrod

If there's a situation, because, you know, some of the situations that we all deal with in implementing the rule are not always so black and white. Sometimes they can be like, I could see how this could be interpreted that way or that way in those situations. Do you think, like, you're. Does the Bible call us to say, err towards one way or the other? Like, you know, err towards grace if you're gonna make a mistake or err towards implementing the rule. And maybe that's. Maybe I'm just.

[00:39:46.67] - Gregg Garner

We. Would you mean as like someone who's enforcing.

[00:39:48.82] - Jeff Sherrod

Yes, as somebody who was important.

[00:39:50.07] - Gregg Garner

See, I don't think you can. I don't think you can give grace if you don't enforce the rule. Because that's what makes the cheap grace.

[00:39:56.15] - Laurie Kagay

Right.

[00:39:57.05] - Gregg Garner

That's what makes a cheap grace. Like, if I don't say, hey, man, you. You. You gotta let everybody know you made a mistake on this travel itinerary. Okay. This afternoon, I'll give you a window of time. You let everybody know is a mistake, and you'll get to experience everybody letting it go and forgiving you, you will feel a little humiliated. It'll sting.

[00:40:15.88] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:40:16.30] - Gregg Garner

But it's good for you, and it's good for the reputation of our organization. And people will have the facts. They'll have the Real information. So you got to. You got to own up to that and then experience the grace.

[00:40:27.13] - Jeff Sherrod

Right. Because in that situation, you're pumped for someone to experience grace as long as it's not cheap.

[00:40:32.42] - Gregg Garner

Right.

[00:40:32.73] - Jeff Sherrod

And you'll do that a number. I'm saying you'll like, as people that are full of God's spirit.

[00:40:36.57] - Gregg Garner

Right.

[00:40:36.80] - Jeff Sherrod

Like, we'll do that a number of times.

[00:40:38.65] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. And we maybe more than we should for ourselves too.

[00:40:41.26] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:40:41.90] - Gregg Garner

And God does that with us. That's what the conviction's about, right?

[00:40:44.86] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:40:45.19] - Gregg Garner

You got convicted. You did it, dude.

[00:40:48.40] - Laurie Kagay

I think even in small ways, I've seen you demonstrate. Like, I remember when you were teaching undergrad and people would bring their papers late and you're like, well, I don't want it. You know, like, just, no, but we still have that issue. You know, students still want to do a paper late and they send us a lot of requests for exceptions. And we've talked in our office. I'm like, just tell them no. This is the fifth time they've asked for an exception. It's no longer grace. Like, you gotta stop because.

[00:41:11.34] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, well, especially when they barely ask.

[00:41:14.26] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah.

[00:41:14.67] - Jeff Sherrod

It's like, I won't have it in.

[00:41:16.07] - Laurie Kagay

That's okay.

[00:41:17.01] - Jeff Sherrod

What's that?

[00:41:17.46] - Laurie Kagay

Always my key to them. I'm like, you have to ask. You don't just assume you have it. But like, if every time they ask, you're saying, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, like, then there's no longer. They're not even feeling the business.

[00:41:27.48] - Gregg Garner

It really depends on what business you're in. Right. I think part of this gets convoluted because so many people are in the money making business and not the people development business. If you're in the money making business. Yeah. You got to give the customers what they want or they won't keep attending. They won't keep coming. Right. If you're in the people development business, you don't give people what they want. You. You give them what God wants and they decide whether or not that's what they want to be a part of.

[00:41:53.71] - Laurie Kagay

Right.

[00:41:54.30] - Gregg Garner

And as long as you have that straight, it can give you confidence when you're implementing discipline. So for example, if you're like a babysitter at a house and you get all these restrictions are put on you. Like, my oldest daughter babysat quite a bit and she said that some moms would be like, all right, when you're at the house, no television, no iPads. I want them having these healthy snacks. I also want you to clean and do these things. Like, gives her all these things to do, right? And the kid is like, bored out of their mind. They're trying to play with them. They're also trying to clean. They're trying to do all this stuff, and it's just way too much. But then as soon as the mom comes home or maybe, like, she would tell me, she'd come visit later and the kids on an iPad and the TVs on while the mom house is a mess and she's like, just scrolling Instagram.

[00:42:47.13] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Eating potato chips.

[00:42:48.69] - Gregg Garner

Yes. She'd be like, how do I interpret this, dad? Like, it feels so hypocritical that this is all going on. And I had to, I had to tell her this is what it's like. Like in a transactional world where someone feels like they're paying for something, they. They have expectations that they're paying for and they want a return on, on that payment. So when it comes to biblical education, like, we can't ever let biblical education become part of the consumer mentality because this is not how it works. You can't pay God for him to implement grace.

[00:43:23.86] - Jeff Sherrod

Right?

[00:43:24.44] - Gregg Garner

And grace can't be implemented because it's not cheap. It came as a result of the life of God being given to us in his son. So it's even a sacred consideration. So when it comes then to how we operate as administrators or even professors, we have to help a person understand when grace is being given to them. And we have to start with the enforcement of rules. And so sometimes it's just good to be like. So I told my daughter, I said, hey, listen, here's what you do. Then if it's too stressful, you don't want to go there anymore, raise your prices. Just raise them right up there. And if they don't want to pay for that, you're alleviated now you don't have to do it anymore or be brave enough to say, hey, I can't do all this because it's not reasonable. Your kid doesn't like it. And plus, I know you don't even do it. So I think it's unrealistic to expect me to do that. Because even the kids started getting to the age where they would tell her, my mom lets me. So it's like, that's how you operate in a transactional world, a consumer world. But when it comes to the word of God, let's remember that Peter was so extreme about this that when Simon the pharmacist wanted to buy what it was that the disciples were doing in implementing the kingdom of God. In the Book of Acts, Peter was, like, really upset that he even thought that this could be purchased.

[00:45:05.98] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:45:06.32] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. So we, too, should have a mentality that even though we live in a world where students are paying for school, there's a different return here. The return isn't you get what you want. The return is you get to become a disciple of Jesus and you get to be transformed by that word.

[00:45:30.28] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:45:30.76] - Gregg Garner

And we're. That's the result we're looking for, that you grow.

[00:45:34.71] - Jeff Sherrod

Yep.

[00:45:35.67] - Gregg Garner

So you growing doesn't always equal you getting what you want or you getting what makes sense to you.

[00:45:41.23] - Jeff Sherrod

Often. Yeah.

[00:45:42.19] - Gregg Garner

But I think coddling starts there.

[00:45:44.17] - Jeff Sherrod

It does, Yeah. I mean, this has been a great conversation. I so appreciated the discussion on grace and Chief Grace and grace costing. I thought the perspective on conviction was so helpful. I hope you guys enjoyed this conversation as well. We'll see you guys next time on College Conversations. Thanks for joining us on College Conversations. Hope you guys enjoyed the show as always. It means the world to us. When you, like, subscribe, you tell your friends and your loved ones about this show. If you haven't yet, head over to Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcast and subscribe to it. You'll be notified anytime a new episode comes out. Also, head over to YouTube and subscribe to our channel. Let other people know about the work that we're doing. As always, let us know about any comments that you have, things that you want to talk about, things that you appreciate. We really do appreciate hearing from the audience. Until next time, we'll see you guys on College Conversations sp.