Summary: This podcast discusses the challenges and benefits of adult learners in Christian higher education, including balancing work and family responsibilities. President Gregg Garner emphasizes the value and wisdom adult learners bring to the classroom and the need for professors to be sensitive to their unique experiences. Professors Laurie Kagay and Jeff Sherrod (host) highlight the importance of humility, flexibility, and experiential learning in biblical theology education while getting real-time feedback from adult learner John Edmondson. The conversation also touches on the differences in learning styles between adult and younger students. Overall, the speakers encourage adult learners to have faith and value in their decision to pursue higher education.

S2E16: Is It Too Late for Me? - A Discussion on Adult Learners

[00:00:11.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Hey, everyone, and welcome back to college conversations podcast about all things related to christian higher education. We aim this for prospective students and parents, really just anyone interested in the christian higher education space. We're talking about things related to admissions and best practices. My name is Jeff Sherrod. I'm joined with the president of the Institute for Global Outreach Developments. Mr Gregg Garner, Mrs Laurie Kagay, who is the vp of enrollment and marketing.

[00:00:37.90] - Laurie Kagay

Hi, everyone.

[00:00:38.49] - Jeff Sherrod

And today we have with us a guest, Mr. John Edmondson. John is a teacher at the Academy for God, which is a k-12 school. You are a chef Nyumba food services, which also provides the food service for the Institute, the college's meal program. You have six kids?

[00:00:56.28] - John Edmondson

Six, yeah.

[00:00:57.03] - Jeff Sherrod

And in your vast spare time, you're also a college student.

[00:01:02.34] - John Edmondson

Yep, in my spare time. On the side a little bit, yeah.

[00:01:05.95] - Jeff Sherrod

So, yeah, today we're talking about adult learners. Some of the, like, the profile, I think two things I'm kind of interested in, like what makes, what kind of headspace and personality. Maybe not personality, but mindset. Does someone have to have to do well as an adult learner? Like, you know, coming back to Bible school, christian school, and then also, like, what are some things that the schools can do to help adult learners to do well? Yeah. So you're not our expert, but you can at least be a representative voice. Really? All of us, all of us have done, all of us have been adult learners. So, yeah, we've done this in different ways. We use the term adult learners. Some people have kicked back on this, right. Because they're like, well, everyone in college is an adult. True. Right. But yeah, this is mostly a way of talking about people that are coming to college either for the first time or coming back to college after the age 25. People that often, like, are in a career, whether part time, full time, or they have family responsibilities. The grand majority, I think it's 70% of adult learners are part time. But it is a growing space. Like, you know, we've talked about some of the decline, especially in christian higher education, but in that, that's for traditionals. But in that same category, for what we sometimes say, non traditionals or adult learners, this, that category continues to grow, you know, so at this point, it's about 30% of all undergraduate students are adult learners. And, you know, most of them are career type people, whether part time or full time. I think they also say like 70% of them have some dependents that they're working with, you know, so it's a different experience being an adult learner I don't know. I don't know. Always the best term, we say adult learners. We say non traditional. Some people are like, it's not non traditional.

[00:02:56.08] - Laurie Kagay

People are starting to say, stop saying non traditional. They're, the majority of your student body is what people say. So they're like, they're not non traditional to you.

[00:03:04.55] - Jeff Sherrod

And I guess the concern is that like they. If you say non traditional, maybe it's like, all right, we see this group of people as just like this ancillary kind of group over here, but our main focus is our normal students. I don't know. I don't know what's the main concern. So I've heard some people say older.

[00:03:23.22] - Gregg Garner

Students or I think the future of education is going to have it that many more young people. Because when we do talk about traditional, we're talking about 18 to 24. And the expectation is you graduate high school and you go to college.

[00:03:41.05] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:03:41.81] - Gregg Garner

And you maybe take a couple years, you can have a couple years to figure some things out. But that's the timeframe. Traditional, yeah, non traditional then is anybody who falls outside of that age range. So they say then you guys are trying to find the right label. Adult learners is where they go. But I think the future of education is going to definitely require us to reconsider the nomenclature because when you look at where people are at and where education's at and where the economy's at, it just seems like so many more young people are going to head either into the trade space or go straight to work because they have got a technical skill that they can freelance. And there's the gig economy that's emerged that post Covid can sometimes pay very well, especially for where a young person's at in life that outset. And I think also the way that secondary education goes, not many institutions are specifically preparing a student for a career. And in that case, they don't know what kind of trajectory they want to head in. And I don't think students want to go into six figure debt to figure it out.

[00:04:53.25] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:04:53.81] - Gregg Garner

So even the advice that they're getting from people around them is more along the lines of, hey, take a gap year or figure this out. And I think we all know that sometimes gap years turn into gap decades, gap life. So it is. I do think that the future is going to normalize what we would call non traditional. And this might be the interim step to call it an adult learner. But I think also part of the reason why adult learners engage the institutions they are for, the education they want is because they've had enough time to develop an understanding of themselves, an understanding of the world that they live in and how it is that what they see as a need intersects with what they can do. So at a certain point, you go, wow. Cause I think a lot of adult learners sometimes already have education. Like, you already have another. Where'd you go to school at?

[00:05:55.01] - John Edmondson

I went to the university. Sorry. University of Georgia.

[00:05:57.75] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. Yeah. And what was that in? What was that degree in?

[00:06:00.57] - John Edmondson

Literature.

[00:06:01.25] - Gregg Garner

Literature. So you're already a literature degree guy.

[00:06:03.92] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:06:04.25] - Gregg Garner

And then he ends up becoming a chef and does that for 20 some years, right?

[00:06:11.41] - John Edmondson

Yeah. Going on to 30.

[00:06:14.31] - Gregg Garner

So 30 years now. But midstream. Not even midstream, like, probably 25 years in. Then you get this calling from God to learn the Bible, and then that puts him in our now adult learner category. So I think there's context for why people become adult learners, whether it's. I need to get. I need upward mobility at work, and this is the prerequisite to.

[00:06:40.17] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, I think for that. Like, you know, a lot of this space grew after 2008, you know? And so that was, like, a lot of people coming back was the financial concerns. They're like, all right, I need some more.

[00:06:51.18] - Gregg Garner

Or I'm referencing the great Recession.

[00:06:53.36] - Jeff Sherrod

Right? Yeah.

[00:06:53.76] - Gregg Garner

Right. Not. Not the election of Barack Obama. I'm trying to think of all the adrenaline.

[00:07:00.75] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:07:01.16] - John Edmondson

Yeah.

[00:07:01.37] - Jeff Sherrod

Just the economic downturn. And then people started to go back to school to say, all right, maybe I can. I'm gonna change a career, or I need additional circumstances.

[00:07:07.80] - Gregg Garner

And I think after Covid, too, with the great resin thing, we're having the similar kind of experience where people are. The COVID gave everybody that time to pause on life and reflect, like, what the heck am I doing?

[00:07:18.07] - Jeff Sherrod

Right?

[00:07:18.47] - Gregg Garner

What. What else should I consider anyways? I think adult learner works for us for right now. Yeah.

[00:07:23.93] - John Edmondson

I mean, I definitely identify with both, I think. And for different reasons. I think with, like, the non traditional student, I think it's more like how I. How. How it fits into my. The scale of my life. And then, like, being an adult learner is more like how I operate in the classroom, I think. Because I think you. I think older adults who are coming back to it a lot of time, they just approach their education differently. It's been my experience, at least.

[00:07:48.73] - Gregg Garner

Yeah.

[00:07:49.20] - John Edmondson

Whereas, like, being a non traditional student, I think it has more to do with, like, my. My life schedule.

[00:07:53.95] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:07:54.25] - John Edmondson

You know what I mean? Like, I. There's no way I could be a traditional student and support my family. And do all those other things, which. So then I think both of those labels kind of come into play kind of simultaneously, but for different reasons. In my mind, I. I've always just kind of thought of myself as an adult learner, though. The only kickback is you, definitely. It's just like, I'm old. What does that mean? It's like I'm just old.

[00:08:17.35] - Jeff Sherrod

It just means I'm old.

[00:08:18.23] - John Edmondson

I'm just getting old, man. Why do you want me to tell you?

[00:08:20.31] - Jeff Sherrod

But I'm still with a lot of kids.

[00:08:21.91] - Gregg Garner

When I was an undergrad, I had this human growth and development course and actually Jason Roufs, and at the time, this girl, Tara Bishop, were in the class, and they. They were always talking and chatting, and I was kind of bored. I don't know. I was always bored. But they would giggle and laugh, and at a certain point, I started engaging in their disruptive activity. And this guy who was sitting in front of us turns around, and as he turns around, he is just. And I realized, this is an adult learner. This guy is like, I don't know, he's in his four. And he turns around, he's like, you be quiet.

[00:09:09.92] - Jeff Sherrod

Super serious.

[00:09:10.88] - Gregg Garner

Super serious. And I was, like, completely shocked. And at the time, mature as I was, you know, he embarrassed me in front of this girl, Tara Bishop, who would become my wife. And I was like, I didn't even know what kind of comeback to have, so I just went. I just went, dude, you're old. Quiet. So mean, huh? That was my only comeback. Like, was like, this guy. Why is this guy so old in our class? He might have been in his thirties.

[00:09:40.66] - Jeff Sherrod

Right, right.

[00:09:41.22] - Gregg Garner

He had, like, a solid Michael Bolton hair. You know, the Michael Bolton, like, thin on the top, long on the sides, and glorious. Like he had one of those dudes. But, yeah, I didn't know how to contextualize his experience. Nobody at school said, hey, guys, you're going to have these full on, experienced adults who have families and careers in your classroom.

[00:10:03.69] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. They're going to sit right beside you.

[00:10:04.67] - Gregg Garner

Learning the same stuff you are. Deal with that. There's nothing like that. It was just an assumed. So I do think that for the student in the classroom, who is just a quote unquote traditional, came out of high school, went to college, it is. I think they would vibe with a non traditional kind of sense of that student. But again, maybe be offended by saying we're all adults at the same time failing to consider how much more challenging. Cause, like, I get why that guy wanted me to shut up. Like, he came to school on purpose.

[00:10:42.79] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, he's paying for this, like, out of pocket.

[00:10:46.47] - Gregg Garner

You know, for most young kids, you have, like, parents down your throat going, you're gonna go to college, or grandparents are like, you will fail. My. And so you're like, I just gotta go where person coming back. When did you start again? When did you start Bible college?

[00:10:58.58] - John Edmondson

2017.

[00:10:59.80] - Gregg Garner

How old are you, can I ask?

[00:11:00.95] - John Edmondson

42.

[00:11:01.87] - Gregg Garner

So 42 years old, you come back to college. Like, that is a decision.

[00:11:07.23] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, it's a decision.

[00:11:07.84] - Gregg Garner

Like an adult decision. Nobody's making you do this. This is you sacrificially saying, this is how I'm gonna spend my time, where the 18 year old just kind of what you do, right. It's where you're at, what you do. And interestingly enough, governmental programs support the effort. Right? Like, you can apply for FAFSA and get your aid and. And all those kinds of things that support that stage in life. So it's definitely a much more challenging scenario. And I had no compassion for the guy in my class who made this very adult decision to get in there and actually learn.

[00:11:43.08] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:11:44.09] - Gregg Garner

So it is a unique experience with adult learner coming into the classroom.

[00:11:49.51] - John Edmondson

Oh, for sure. I think even the institute did a really good job. I don't even think it was necessarily conscious. I think it was just kind of the stuff the instructors are made of, what they have in them. But I never felt like there was that tension with the full time traditional students. We still joke around. Class of 17, some of the younger people I work with interact with on a regular basis. You know, it's always been like a pretty unique dynamic, you know, where I was always very welcomed in the classroom setting. And, you know, my experiences in life were always, like, cherished as ways of understanding things better. Instead of happy to hear you're, like, over here, you know? And I think a lot of that just comes from, like, instructors like you guys, like, asking, asking questions, like, well, you know, when you did this, you know, and this kind of prompting. Prompting information out of me at times. Yeah, I know.

[00:12:48.89] - Jeff Sherrod

I never thought yes or no.

[00:12:50.37] - Gregg Garner

I felt the need to do that because of remembering when I had no context for that adult learner in my class. And even because you go negative, at least I did as a kid, I'm like, he must have failed something, right? Something happened. This is Laura. Rather than recognizing the gifts of the adult learner in the classroom, the wisdom that they have to bring the experience and the knowledge, it's definitely a gift to have an adult learner it absolutely is.

[00:13:18.13] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:13:18.47] - Gregg Garner

If they can endure the.

[00:13:20.03] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, there's. There's challenges there. Yeah. Cause you're not just sitting in classrooms. I know, like, for us, I mean, you're in group projects. You're, you know, it can be late night sometimes, hanging out with younger people, younger adults, and doing this. So, yeah, it takes a maybe that leads me to my next consideration. Like, if someone's listening to this and, like, man, I'm thinking about going back to Bible school. I don't know if I have what it takes. What would you guys say are some of the healthy mindsets and maybe also obstacles that people are going to have to overcome in going back to school, in being an adult learner, going to a space that is traditionally aimed at younger adults.

[00:14:00.87] - John Edmondson

I think I've always been. I would consider it a blessing. I'm not scared of change. I think a lot of adults, the more comfortable they get in their lives and the further down the road they get, they're really adverse to change. And for whatever reason, I've always enjoyed it. I'm rarely setting patterns of things I'd like to do, but I'm not scared to change them up either. And I think that helped me tremendously. But it takes. I don't know. It took faith. I think that was at the core of my decision. I tell people, like, it wasn't really a decision. Like, it was decided for me. It was just up to me to, like, step in faith and just trust. This is what the Lord, where the Lord wanted me to be in doing and just do my part. And, you know, I think the difficulties show up, though. It's not an easy. It's not an easy road. I wouldn't say that at all. It was an easy choice, though. It was an easy choice for me because I knew that's what I wanted to do, and so I just pursued it. So it's like, when I. When I get my mind focused on something, I'm gonna go after it.

[00:15:09.00] - Gregg Garner

Yeah.

[00:15:09.46] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:15:09.75] - John Edmondson

You know, and I think you have to kind of. Maybe that ethic would probably be something that.

[00:15:13.35] - Gregg Garner

That's one of the mindsets. They gotta be the kind of person that is gonna get at it, like.

[00:15:18.50] - John Edmondson

Yeah, kind of perseverance and just, you know. You know, like, I have six kids. I knew that it wasn't gonna be an easy, like, at the time when I started, I only had. I only had four, but we were pregnant with our fifth. Like, he was born, like, five months after I took my first class, so I knew there were going to be challenges. I hadn't written a paper in 20 something years. I hadn't set in a lecture in forever. I hadn't done anything academic, so I knew that it was going to be a challenge, but it was also a really exciting time for me. So I don't know. Maybe you have to be a little crazy.

[00:15:56.49] - Laurie Kagay

I think I've seen the adults specifically that do well because I think we kind of have both. We have adults who try the program either, I think, learn pretty quickly. I can't do this or not right now, not for me. Or they really put their head down and, like, I'm committed, I'm gonna do this. And it feels like pretty quick, like a class or two or you're in it for the long haul. But I think I've definitely seen that amount of, like, discipline and decisiveness in the adult learners where that once they have made up their minds even, like, they're. They're typically even, like, turning it in on time, you know, like, not even really asking for a lot of exceptions. They're kind of like the excellent students and I. But I think it's because they've. They've kind of come to that thing to say, I am gonna do it. They've. I know for me, like, as a mom, sometimes it feels like you just don't know what window of time you'll get back. So you have to get it done and get it done then. And that's kind of what I see from adult learners. Like, I'm sure for you, I've known you, like, even with yourself, six kids and things, and I'll see social media, and you're, like, also at the gym and also doing this with your family. And I'm like, you've, you know, you're a disciplined person and you can tell. And I think that you kind of have to be to go back to school.

[00:17:13.49] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Yeah. I think in part because you're, you know, like, there is a difference when someone's coming from high school or, you know, they're younger. There's some neuroplasticity that allows them to take things a little bit faster. Maybe they're in an academic setting, so they will work faster. They're familiar with the technology, which sometimes makes it so that there's just less hurdles. And so I've almost always seen adult learners take longer to finish things and then kind of have moments of self doubt. Not always self doubt, but almost always longer, where, you know, sometimes they might wonder, like, I can't keep up with these young kids, you know, I hear a lot of stuff like that, like the challenges with technology and trying to accommodate and how can I hold all these things in my head and, yeah, I think there's some challenges that.

[00:17:59.89] - Gregg Garner

But you're saying that while that's a challenge and they misperceive that young people have no issue with that.

[00:18:07.46] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:18:08.26] - Gregg Garner

In contrast, likely the content they produce is of a greater quality.

[00:18:15.28] - Jeff Sherrod

It's better.

[00:18:15.78] - Laurie Kagay

That's my experience, for sure.

[00:18:18.39] - Gregg Garner

Navigated the technology of the breeze, has a large learning curve to produce the kind of content.

[00:18:24.34] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Laurie has this, like, thing that you.

[00:18:27.47] - Laurie Kagay

Say about saying before even just, you know, I was reflecting on prepping for this podcast. I was like, if I could, like, characterize an adult learner, I probably say, like, more capable but less secure. So, like, they're actually. I really enjoy teaching adults because I feel like all the reactions and everything are immediate. Like, even as a lecturer, it's like, nice. Like, whereas teaching a young person, it's like, I think what you're saying is going to be important for me, but they're like, kind of practicing this trust.

[00:18:57.68] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. Speaking from a professor's perspective, that's one of the most challenging things for me in teaching undergrad is I'm going to be teaching young people things they have no capacity to experientially conceptualize. I'm just going to be talking to them in pure abstract.

[00:19:17.30] - Laurie Kagay

That's why I am sometimes like, John, will you tell them?

[00:19:21.28] - John Edmondson

You're just going to have to trust me. You're going to need this information.

[00:19:23.25] - Gregg Garner

That makes education tough. And I think we can all agree the Bible wasn't written to kids.

[00:19:30.43] - Laurie Kagay

Right?

[00:19:31.10] - Gregg Garner

And, I mean, it's one thing to go to a school where you're effectively memorizing rules and procedures that you're going to implement in the workplace. It's a whole other thing when you're developing theology and a biblical theology at that. There's so much about it that requires analogy, and it's the analogy to experience that always gives the speed bump to the young, ambitious person that really wants to know God. And I hear it all the time. You teach a young person and then 15 years later they come to you and they go, that class you taught, it finally makes sense to me now. Cause I had this experience and I'm always like, I'm glad you remembered. But gosh, yeah, that's what happens.

[00:20:16.24] - Laurie Kagay

You had to hold on for a while. Yeah.

[00:20:18.20] - Gregg Garner

So I think there's an argument that could be made that if you're an adult learner. Yeah. Maybe the technology might be challenging for you, maybe the schedule and finding the energy at the right time. But as far as a human being, you are primed.

[00:20:31.79] - Jeff Sherrod

You're primed.

[00:20:32.24] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. You are primed for this word of God to find the soil of your heart to produce fruit.

[00:20:40.85] - John Edmondson

Yeah. I think that the time thing's interesting. I think there. It's like a same side of different coins. Like, there's like a. Because I think especially the older you get, like, time becomes your economy, you know? Like, I think you learn how to count your days, as the psalms would say, they have more value. So your time's, like, so important to you. And I think it can be like, I'm doing this, I'm giving time to it. I'm going to be excellent in it. But I think on the other side, like, when people do waiver, sometimes I think it's out of fear. It's like, I'm not going to have enough time to do this thing and do it well. So I just don't want to do it at all. I want to be able to give myself to it. And I think this, like, hesitation sneaks in at times, too. So I do think there's, like a kind of two sides to the same. Same deal, but I do think it really revolves around that.

[00:21:29.17] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. And that's been my experience. Even with working with adult learners. Like, you know, an undergrad student in traditional, younger, they might be real comfortable with getting a b, but I have not seen that from, you know, adult learners.

[00:21:39.28] - John Edmondson

They.

[00:21:39.51] - Jeff Sherrod

They get some. Anything less than an a. And it's. It can be like, I tried and I don't know what to do, and this is too hard. And. And it's still. Sometimes I. It's happened so infrequently.

[00:21:49.38] - John Edmondson

Yeah.

[00:21:49.71] - Jeff Sherrod

You know, where someone does poorly, but just trying to, as an adult, I don't. Yeah. I'm trying to even think, like, it's mostly not even final grades. It's an assignment of maybe something that they didn't get. You know, they're almost always.

[00:22:01.79] - Gregg Garner

This is one of 30 assignments, 10% weighting your grade. You're gonna be okay.

[00:22:05.72] - Jeff Sherrod

You're gonna be fine. You're gonna get a strong a by the time you're done here. Yeah. Just helping them recognize that, you know, like, there's. They wanna do it so well. I think they're right and they wanna do it so well that it can. If they're not careful, it could actually just derail them, though, like that.

[00:22:19.90] - John Edmondson

Oh, yeah.

[00:22:20.23] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah. I think it's kind of two sides, the same coin. I would also say, like, adult learners are some of my more appreciative learners. Like, you can tell they really value what they're getting, but sometimes they do. Like, they, they appreciate it so much or they want to respect you so much. So they're like, I'll just bow out right now. And it's like, no, not like that. But so there's something wonderful that they're treasuring it. But at the same time, sometimes they can create kind of mini idols of like, I have to perform perfectly.

[00:22:47.60] - John Edmondson

Yeah, I remember talking to another adult and they are having concerns about that. And I was just like, I would. I've gotten to the point like, I, when I first started, I was like, I'm making a's on everything. And then life started happening, you know, and it's like, do I finish this class and get a, b or c and do my best or do I just bow out? And my, you know, my, my encouragement to them was just like, you're going to take so, like, you're going to take a c and a whole lot of new biblical information that you didn't have before.

[00:23:15.74] - Gregg Garner

Yeah.

[00:23:16.34] - John Edmondson

You know, and it's going to have a more like an a plus value to you, I assure you. It's really about your humility. Like, what level of humility are you willing to experience, I guess, in order to do that?

[00:23:31.49] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:23:32.04] - John Edmondson

Because there's definitely been times like I'm an a student. Like, I have no, no problem saying that. But are my grades always a's? No. You know, and I've had to just learn to be okay with that.

[00:23:42.44] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:23:42.84] - John Edmondson

You know, it's just paper and it's just, it's just a grade on the paper at the end of the day. But, like, what we're getting, what we're being fed with, it's just so much more valuable.

[00:23:53.24] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, I'm interested, maybe switching gears here a little bit, what do you guys think are some ways maybe I'm addressing this mostly to you, like, that you would say, all right, students are trying to come back to school later in life and they're coming back to Bible school or christian school. What are some ways that the school themselves can serve the students? Like, how can they make this easier, less hurdles? What do you think some schools can do to serve this demographic?

[00:24:17.79] - John Edmondson

Sure.

[00:24:18.00] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. And I'd actually be interested in what John has to say based upon his experience. But in my experiences going to a school as an adult learner, I do think that I feel the need to, in advance ask for exceptions because I know that my work schedule is going to create for me some obstacles to getting things done in a timely fashion. So I think a school could onboard adult learners in such a way that they anticipate the need for exceptions without compromising the timelines that are important to finishing out a subject. So, like, one school that I went to, they gave you like a three week grace period, and after three weeks, if you didn't get the assignment in, they just became, by default, the zero. But within that three week window, anytime you turned it in, you merited the grade without any deduction. But then also they would publish the entirety of the curriculum in advance so that you could. You could look at it as a whole. They would highlight what major assignments were and when they would be due so that you could immediately look at your calendar. And I really like the ones that use their LMS to, at the outset, allow you to download the calendar dates of due dates for assignments right away. And I typically would go into there and then put reminders on the due date calendar assignments for me, like a week, three days, two days, day of kind of thing. Just so it keeps getting on your mind. And I think it's important. One of the most awkward things that I've had to deal with as an adult learner is like, I've had classes, like on a PhD level, but nonetheless a class where the instructor, also PhD, is maybe 29, 30 years old. And they've actually never done what they're teaching. They've learned a lot about it, even taught on it a lot. So their knowledge base is really strong. But I've been in situations where I've been doing the thing they're teaching, the actual thing they're teaching for 25 years, had a career out of it, built a ministry out of it, and there seems to be very little room in those contexts to contend with the position the course takes. Let me say it another way. There's no room for me to bring up any of my experience into the class because sometimes the professor is a little insecure about what they don't know or what they haven't experienced. And there's this sense it would feel like, of threat on the curriculum itself, because sometimes our experience questions can create a bit of a disruption with whatever it is that's being delivered. So when that happens, you just kind of shut up and be quiet because you're hearing someone teach something, you know, that's 15 years old, what they're teaching, because that's when the studies happen. It took five years for them to write it, two years for the publisher to get it out, and then three years for it to catch wind. And the school's been using it for five. So that's 15 years ago of information. You're currently in the field. You know, it doesn't work anymore. We can't even talk about it like that. Especially in christian schools. Yeah, in christian schools. I think the second component of it is, is teaching the Bible for children when you're an adult. That's another thing that I have a hard time with. If you're going to have adult learners, you better be ready for experiential contention.

[00:28:36.86] - Jeff Sherrod

Adult problems.

[00:28:37.78] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. Where you don't just have young people in there anymore who haven't had any experiences. You're talking adults who can say, well, let me put some color into your black and white here. Cause there's some things you might not be thinking about, but I think a lot of institutions don't know how to create room for that.

[00:28:58.35] - Jeff Sherrod

Right. Yeah, I think that's a great point. Cause I think that sometimes at schools, even, certainly for me as a teacher, I'm thinking about the requisite humility that adult learners gonna have to have. Right. To come back. But at the same time as schools, we gotta ask our same question, like, how are we demonstrating humility.

[00:29:16.31] - Gregg Garner

In those institutions? As a student, I really feel like what happens is I just have to be quiet. And now I don't feel like I'm learning anything because I'm looking for an expert, which should be my professor, for whom I can say, hey, this, this and this is not producing that, that, and that. However, this is still a problem.

[00:29:40.01] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:29:40.74] - Gregg Garner

So if that doesn't work and that's what you're teaching, what are the other alternatives? Like, you want to be able to talk like that, but sometimes they don't. Just don't know how to handle it. So what can an institution do? I think an institution needs to prepare their professors for experienced adult learners.

[00:29:56.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:29:56.96] - Gregg Garner

And I was. I was blessed by the comment you made, John, that the professors at the institute, out of who they are, even though they weren't probably intentionally addressing some of those things, but out of who they are, they made the experience helpful for you. But I do. I think even the institute, as we scale up, we're going to have to institutionalize the education that professors need to effectively interact with adult learners. Because, like, I'll give one more simple example. Okay. You contend with a certain verse. Let's say the verse is. Is about the marginalization of women and their abuse. Maybe we're looking at judges. We're just looking at what happens to women in those societies that are highly patriarchal. And you have the young people in there and their cause for justice and their passion to rescue girls. Like that is all coming out. Then you have another woman in there who actually lived a life where that was her storyline. She went through all that, and now she's kind of reeling as a result of hearing all this. And she's going through it. If you just move too quick to the justice campaign, she can feel unseen, lost in the mix. So I think professors do have to develop the sensitivity to recognize that an adult learner, like you may be talking about something in the conceptual that adult learner may have lived.

[00:31:29.21] - John Edmondson

Right.

[00:31:30.02] - Gregg Garner

So you do have to open up your mind as a professor to be ready to share, I think, the classroom, maybe you have the knowledge, but the wisdom is going to be shared with any adult learner in the classroom.

[00:31:46.03] - John Edmondson

Yeah, I did like, what you said about, like, this idea of, like, coloring in between the black and white, like, or even having like, gray tones to it. Because I do think younger students can be idealistic, especially when it comes to, like, learning God's word. It insists of, I think of a function of their age and their lack of life experiences. And I've definitely been in class lectures where something will be taught and you can feel like somebody's borderline, like in, like, insulted by what they're hearing, you know, or they're getting frustrated and getting to, like, even share, like, experiences, like hearing from adult voices that are. Can't even explain their experiences. I think it even adds, like you're saying, like, when you can incorporate that into the classroom, it's just going to add to the educational experience, even for the young people.

[00:32:40.27] - Gregg Garner

And I think it blesses the adult learner, too, because adult learner can see that their presence is, is actually one that acknowledges who they are. Because to pretend like they don't have all this life experience and they're in the same place as the other young people is just an overall we're miss, what's the word here? Overlooking. Overlooking what value exists in the dollar.

[00:33:08.73] - Jeff Sherrod

Right. Yeah. John, maybe to finish this out here, if I can put you on the spot, what would you say to the potential prospective adult learner that's looking for going back to college, christian college, Bible college? And they're like, I don't know if I'm going to be able to do it. What kind of, what kind of advice.

[00:33:24.14] - John Edmondson

Would you say, man, if you feel like a call in your heart to learn God's word? I think you should. You know, it's the idea of moving mountains, you know, and, like, I've had to move stuff around in our lives as a family, you know, and I think you need to have your family on board with it. Yeah. My wife was incredibly supportive of my decision from the beginning. Like, it was just like, hey, I feel like the Lord's calling me to do this. And she's like, okay. Like, it was, like, really easy, you know, I was expecting a conversation with a lot of emotions, and that was like, the breadth of it, you know? And I do think, like, giving yourself, you're gonna have to be willing to give yourself to it and give yourself over to it and, like, allow the. Allow the Lord to, like, direct your path with it, because otherwise it will just feel overwhelming, in my opinion, you know? So I do think, like, it takes faith. I think going back to school at a later age, regardless of the subject matter, takes a requisite amount of faith in either, like, your ability or in your desire or anything to be able to, you know, overcome the mental hurdles that would take place that come up, you know, is this worth it? So I think you have to value it at its core. Like, it's got to be something that you value. I had grown tired of being taught the Bible out of context. I guess as somebody who went to school to study literature, and understanding the Bible is a beautiful piece of literature. And then having people try to feed me bits of verse that were taken out of context, like, I knew there was more to it and I wanted it for myself. And so I had, like, a value. Like, it meant something to me and it continues to. The more I learn it, the more I just want to learn more of it. So I think that really, at its core, for me, would be the thing that I would say you would need in order to really feel like you're going to have a. Be able to approach it with success, I guess.

[00:35:30.11] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, that's a good word. Thanks, John. Thanks for joining us. Thanks you guys, for joining us today on college conversations. As always, please like and subscribe, share the podcast with others. It means the world to us. Until next time, we'll see you guys later.