Summary: This podcast features two Institute alum, Matthew Parker and Stephen Carver, who are both employed in the construction industry while also working as pastors and development workers. Joined by hosts Gregg Garner and Jeff Sherrod, the four discuss changing job opportunities for graduates of Christian colleges, focusing on non-traditional ministry roles. They stress the importance of values and social intelligence gained from a biblical education in preparing for a job, while offering some critique to traditional Bible colleges for focusing too narrowly on academic knowledge. The four highlight the need for holistic development and intentional preparation for various career paths, integrating biblical teachings with practical skills.

S2E27: Why a Biblical Education Matters in the Construction Field

Transcript - Tue, 03 Sep 2024 15:13:47 GMT

Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2024 15:13:47 GMT, Duration: [00:49:49.03]

[00:00:11.03] - Jeff Sherrod

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to college conversations. My name is Jeff Sherrod. I am joined with the president of the Institute for Global Outreach Development, Mr. Gregg Garner. And today we got with us Mr. Matthew Parker and Stephen Carver.

[00:00:22.64] - Steven Carver

Hello.

[00:00:23.10] - Jeff Sherrod

And today we're talking about, really, jobs after christian college. Jobs after Bible college. One of the issues that I know that christian college Bible colleges are running into is that traditional ministry opportunities have changed. Right? So people, maybe they thought in a traditional sense, I'm going to go to Bible college, and afterwards I'm become a pastor, or I'm going to become a missionary or a youth pastor. That has changed. We spent times long podcast before even talking about some of this change. But it's also changed how Bible colleges are responding to some of those needs. Like, what does it look like for graduates now? But you guys are both graduates of Bible colleges, even multiple Bible colleges, right?

[00:01:07.04] - Matthew Parker

Amen.

[00:01:07.53] - Jeff Sherrod

Yep. And so what is it? What does it look like for us to have a faith that we're practicing even in contexts that are different than what is traditionally seen as ministry experience?

[00:01:18.79] - Gregg Garner

Can I rewind a second from what you said? So you're saying what has changed is the students expectation for what kind of work they do after going to a Bible college?

[00:01:31.84] - Jeff Sherrod

I'm saying what's changed is the availability of Bible colleges, of a traditional ministry, full time employment.

[00:01:39.92] - Gregg Garner

Oh. Because churches are on decline, people don't want to pay for youth pastors. And really, there's the academic track that just puts a person back in the classroom to teach.

[00:01:50.82] - Matthew Parker

Right, right.

[00:01:51.68] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:01:51.98] - Gregg Garner

So you're saying the jobs are now limited and that's created the change?

[00:01:56.48] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, I think that's created the change. So some people are doing, you know, maybe it's, we've used terms like bivocational over the years, but even I think that christian colleges are adapting to this change. Right. It's like, so if we're like, hey, we're gonna graduate 100 youth pastors this year, and we're promising, you know, jobs in field that they're gonna get youth pastor jobs. They're not getting them. So they're going to have to adjust to say, like, what is it still, what's still our place for training ministers, which is still the goal, but do so in a way that's responsible so they can also have employment afterwards.

[00:02:28.62] - Gregg Garner

Okay. Because, I mean, are you making a distinction here between christian colleges and Bible colleges? Because I think there are christian colleges who have opened up their programs so that there are a quite a variety of opportunities for education that sit outside of traditional ministry positions, whereas in Bible schools, typically, you're training to do some of those more traditional positions.

[00:02:59.78] - Matthew Parker

Yeah.

[00:03:00.03] - Jeff Sherrod

So, you know, maybe like, at a christian liberal arts school, maybe they would have, like, a ministry major degree, but that would be one of 100 degrees.

[00:03:06.75] - Gregg Garner

Right.

[00:03:07.03] - Jeff Sherrod

And then at Bible colleges, that's really what we're looking for, is like, these are the ministry degrees. But even Bible colleges are changing, I think, along those ways, too.

[00:03:14.50] - Gregg Garner

Yeah, I agree. I agree. Changing into liberal arts colleges.

[00:03:17.37] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:03:17.62] - Steven Carver

Yeah.

[00:03:17.87] - Jeff Sherrod

So I think that, you know, maybe, and this is not a question for. For Matt, for you and Steve, but maybe we get, like, you know, what is the identity of Bible college moving forward?

[00:03:25.56] - Gregg Garner

Like, yeah, I'm concerned about it.

[00:03:28.00] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:03:28.43] - Gregg Garner

I just. I think that the. The value that the christian community at large places on formal education related to scripture is diminishing. I just think that people believe that a relationship with God does not necessitate academic study in order to perform some of those roles within the church. And then when you have the high church movement, you're effectively performing liturgy. And that gives, I think, people a sense of security away from a personality needing to develop their own ability to read the Bible and communicate. It. It's just way different to attend to a liturgy than it is to attend to a congregation.

[00:04:18.44] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, it is.

[00:04:19.23] - Gregg Garner

And speak towards their need, but, yeah, I mean, that's another conversation. We can get back to this one. I needed to have that kind of clarity to have this conversation because I think for christian liberal arts universities, which have been around for a while, you know, this is, if they. If they have low program enrollment into their youth ministry program, I'm not sure it's too detrimental to how they're operating because the classes are going to be taught for all those different majors by the same small faculty in the Bible wing. Right, or whatever. Whereas a Bible school that necessitates people who have a sense of calling to attend their college and in that case, participate in their programs because there aren't any other options available. That's probably why there is the pool for Bible colleges to say, this isn't sustainable. If we want to be here years from now, we're going to have to create other programs. And I think they start in related fields. They're like, well, let's do education. So education becomes the next program that's opened up there. And they're like, well, social work, because we're helping people, and social work comes into play, and then, you know, ten years later, there's like, robotic engineering, and people find a way. Right, right. But I think, to be clear, which one are we talking about?

[00:05:44.89] - Jeff Sherrod

I'm talking about Bible colleges.

[00:05:46.01] - Gregg Garner

Okay.

[00:05:47.58] - Jeff Sherrod

I think that that's where both of you guys have graduated from Bible college before, so maybe we can just kind of start there. If you guys don't mind introducing yourselves, tell us a little bit about what you do at your job. Tell us where you went to school, too.

[00:05:59:00] - Matthew Parker

You want me to go first?

[00:06:00.30] - Steven Carver

You go ahead.

[00:06:00.93] - Matthew Parker

All right. So my name is Matthew Parker. I'm the director of business development at MCH Nashville. It is a local trade construction company here in town. Started off as a handyman, became a plumber, became h vac technician, and really found some skills within networking and dealing with our distribution pipeline and just making sure that we can keep the company pushing forward. So those are kind of where some of my responsibilities are now.

[00:06:28.70] - Steven Carver

And I'm Steven Carver. I also work at MCH. My title is director of construction trades. So I'm over our h vac, electrical and plumbing, construction departments, and my day to day mostly looks like setting standards for quoting, organizing our employees, those kinds of things.

[00:06:51.73] - Jeff Sherrod

How long? Where did you guys go to school?

[00:06:54.05] - Steven Carver

I went to graduate from the institute. Graduated from the institute. I did a year at MTSU before that, but I graduated from the Institute for God.

[00:07:02.68] - Gregg Garner

So you went from a state college and then went to a Bible school?

[00:07:06.05] - Steven Carver

Yep.

[00:07:06.68] - Gregg Garner

Cool. And was that a result of having a sense of calling?

[00:07:12.12] - Steven Carver

I had a sense of calling.

[00:07:13.99] - Gregg Garner

Did you have that prior to going to MTSU?

[00:07:16.33] - Steven Carver

Yeah. MTSU was. It was a funny year of life because I basically went there because I had no idea what I was going to do. I just knew I was going to do something for the Lord. And then I found out about the institute for God while I was there, and so I bailed as quickly as possible and started here.

[00:07:37.63] - Gregg Garner

So that's cool.

[00:07:38.73] - Steven Carver

Yeah.

[00:07:39.56] - Matthew Parker

Yeah. I went to state school, Georgia State University, downtown Atlanta. Did a semester. My mom wanted me to major in business because she said that's what a real job that I would get. And I think they were worried that I was gonna go off and, like, lead backpacking missions, which was some kind of dream I had at one point in my life.

[00:07:59.19] - Jeff Sherrod

Huh. Just other backpackers?

[00:08:01.01] - Matthew Parker

Yeah, dude, the animals, the people, all of it. You know, the treatment industry. Yeah. But. And I worked at a christian youth camp at the time where I was doing backpack, which was nice, but I really wanted to learn the word. So I went to Moody Bible Institute. Kind of a long story there, but that's where I met Jeff, and then that's where I met Mister Garner. I actually did a little student visit during that time. Sat in some of the institute.

[00:08:25.37] - Gregg Garner

At the institute I did not go to Moody.

[00:08:26.36] - Matthew Parker

Oh, yeah, yeah. At the institute, did a student visit from Moody to the institute and love the Bible teaching. And I was like, man, that's where I want to be. I want to learn how to learn the Bible, but then I want it applicable to my everyday life. And I feel like that was the hitch because I remember talking to you when we were at Moody and I was like, well, I guess I need be a Bible teacher if I want to be a ministry. But I didn't feel like I was a gifted educator in the classroom, formal educator. So I kind of had a goal conflict there. I had to work out. And then when I came to the institute, if you would have told me eight years later I would be in the position I am today, I think I would have been shocked, like, wow, that's what I'm going to be doing. Sounds cool. Amazing. How am I going to get there? So really thankful for that.

[00:09:06.19] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. And so I think that's actually one of the things I'm interested in talking about for the podcast is, you know, we have some perspective students and maybe even students that are just going to Bible college in general. And they're like, man, I want to learn God's word. I want to take it seriously, but I don't know if I'm like, ready to be a pastor or a youth pastor. You know, we have lots of graduates that are not those even from our school. So, like, when you guys think about, you know, ministry and work, what's some of the considerations that you guys are making, like, for that? I know that's a broad question, but like, if someone's like, are you still in ministry? What would you say?

[00:09:37.00] - Matthew Parker

Oh, I'd 100% say I am in ministry. That even getting to work with somebody like Steve, like, we went to the institute together as students. Me and Steve go on sales trip, sales trips. When we go visit new clients and we play off each other's skills, talk to builders about what we can do for, you know, their projects here in Nashville. And to be able to one work with somebody who I share values with is pretty amazing. I think that's step, like part one. I think the other thing, we were actually onboarding a new employee today, and I handle a lot of our safety protocol. So we have like, safety platform. We have to do OSHA standards, things of that nature. But, you know, for me, those safety care and concern come from God's word. And like, the care for life and the preservation of life and making sure people do things in a way that will get them home at the end of the day. And we do work in an industry that has inherent danger associated to it in construction. After we had the conversation, me and him were having a chat, and he was telling me how this was one of the first jobs where he felt so cared for in the process and how safety was so explicit that he was like, man, this feels really different. This feels really nice. I love this. And for me, I was like, that's part of where our biblical values come out. I didn't do a Bible study with him on, like, why life is important, but the desire for us to uphold that kind of value, it comes out in small ways like that.

[00:10:54.75] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:10:55.44] - Gregg Garner

So you're saying you feel confident communicating to others when asked the question, are you in ministry? Because within the context of your job, you utilize the biblical values that you receive through a biblical education to enlighten people or to at least demonstrate consciously what difference, what salt, what light exists in what you guys are doing on the day to day.

[00:11:22.60] - Matthew Parker

Yeah. And I feel like that's one of the big hitches for people who go to Bible college and want to practice their faith when they finished. I remember going to, when I was at moody with some friends and they went into insurance in different industries, but they weren't doing those things because of like a ministry calling. And so I remember there was like, goal conflict they had. They went to Bible college, they went to Bible classes, but then once they graduated, it was kind of like they were going to church and then they just had regular day to day jobs and the job didn't really mean much related to their ministry life. Whereas I feel like for me, the way that I've been taught is that I get to take the things I'm learning in the classroom and then actually find ways to practice them in my day to day, my everyday life. And it's, I even think something simple like telling the truth. Biblical value, we get it from the ten commandments. But I would say we have a lot of clients that are shocked when we own up to our mistakes. We say, hey, that was our fault. Let us come back and take care of it. Because in construction, passing blame, I would say, is like an art rule. It's like something people try to.

[00:12:23.58] - Gregg Garner

Guys, House is different than just being a moral person. Like, not immoral, but a moral person, someone who's demonstrating appropriate work ethics. How is being a person who graduated from a Bible school different.

[00:12:42.14] - Steven Carver

There's. I mean, we have the revelation in the Bible that comes from Jesus, it comes from God, of what a godly person looks like, not just generally moral or just a good person. And it's. I mean, I use. I use scripture every day at work, whether it's very practical considerations about, you know, who to hire, who's a good candidate, how do I interact with this co worker who's being difficult to work with? How do I interact with these builders who are being unethical, difficult to work with, even down to, like, what are good metrics for me to track as a manager for who's doing well, whether or not to do that job. Like, everything I can list, I can go to the revelatory word of God and be able to extract principles that'll help me to decide what to do. That's going to get us to a good point, a good place where we're actually pleasing the Lord through our work.

[00:13:42.96] - Gregg Garner

If I was a young person listening to you talk, I'd be like, yeah, that sounds important, but, like, I would do that anyways. Why would you need to go to Bible school to be able to do that? And I think what it is we need to be explicit about is that just because you have access to the information doesn't mean that you know where to look. Doesn't mean that you even know what to do with that information. And I think sometimes for people, when it comes to ministry in the Bible, they're like, well, if I get into a work situation like Steven is, and I'm having to do this, I too am gonna access the word of God. I mean, it's just sitting right there in a book. I'll look at it. But then I think if they were to pragmatically approach it, they'd be like, man, where do I go? And then next thing you know, they're in the proverbs or in a psalm, and they're taking something incredibly general, like, I will sing at all times or something like that. And then they're like, I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna let this be my life song and promote the Lord and the glory of the Lord and get. There's a big difference between that person and what it is that you're talking about doing, for sure. Because a person who has gone through Bible school, the Bible isn't just something that's outside of them anymore. It's written on their hearts. And you probably have a sense of direction when you are accessing it, to be able to share it with others or allowing it to be that which informs what you're going to do or say.

[00:15:13.70] - Steven Carver

It really is like, if a doctor came to me and wanted to provide medical treatment is like, well, I didn't go to medical school, but I read these articles and I have this handbook.

[00:15:25.69] - Gregg Garner

Yeah.

[00:15:26.15] - Steven Carver

You know, it's like, I'm not going to trust that guy to do anything, even though he has access to the books.

[00:15:31.08] - Gregg Garner

Yeah.

[00:15:31.58] - Steven Carver

He has no idea how, like, what a lot of the words mean, how to. What pages to go to. Like you were saying that are the.

[00:15:38.48] - Gregg Garner

Accountability of an academic community to test, and he could read a sentence and.

[00:15:43.84] - Steven Carver

Think whatever he wants that it means.

[00:15:45.78] - Gregg Garner

But you're describing what, I don't know, a percentage. I'm going to say it's pretty high. A critically high percentage of people who are in the pastorate right now.

[00:15:56.79] - Jeff Sherrod

I mean, especially. We're talking about just worldwide.

[00:15:58.99] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. Worldwide at large.

[00:16:00.14] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. I think Lori told me, you know, she's a regular guest. I think she said like 90% of pastors worldwide have no formal academic training in the Bible.

[00:16:07.25] - Gregg Garner

Yeah.

[00:16:07.54] - Jeff Sherrod

So, large percentage.

[00:16:08.60] - Gregg Garner

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:16:10.00] - Steven Carver

Even my, my dad's a pastor and he's a great pastor, but at this point, I probably have substantially more formal biblical education than he does. And I'm a plumber, which is kind of a funny statement, but to me it makes sense because I use the Bible every day.

[00:16:26.50] - Gregg Garner

Now both of you guys are in construction. Was that the easy jump? Cause you're like, oh, Jesus was a carpenter. Is that what we're telling everybody here? The next job after ministerial things is construction.

[00:16:37.83] - Jeff Sherrod

You can't be a minister and you can't teach Christian.

[00:16:39.82] - Gregg Garner

Be like Jesus.

[00:16:40.91] - Steven Carver

Construction tent making.

[00:16:43.17] - Matthew Parker

Well, I feel like even me and Steve's jobs right now aren't as construction as they were five years ago. Steve's going to be dealing with process development, people management. I'm going to be dealing with sales and networking and growing the business.

[00:16:56.55] - Gregg Garner

So it's like, effectively, let's, let's be honest, even about your mom's desire. You're fulfilling what it was that she expected you to set out to do. You are indeed in business doing these kinds of things, and you did it getting biblical education.

[00:17:13.48] - Matthew Parker

Yeah. And that's true.

[00:17:14.59] - Gregg Garner

I think people are going to want to know, Jeff, how is that possible? How do you do that? How do you send somebody to Bible school and they still be capable of engaging these various industries of occupation? Because, you know, while you're making a great point about your competency with respect to the Bible because you went to Bible school. And how I could appreciate that if I'm one of your clients, that's not instilling confidence in me that you're going to be able to attend to the construction timeline that I have. That is crucial because I don't want to pay any more interest on this loan that I'm taking out to finance your labor. Like, you know what I mean? Like, how does, how does a Bible education and prove all that? What is the benefit?

[00:18:01.00] - Jeff Sherrod

I think one of the questions maybe I'll ask you guys, like, when you guys study the Bible, was it principally just the study of, like, moral education where I'm going to walk out, I was less integrous, and I walked out a little bit more integrous. I'm not going to cheat my employees. Or, like, in what ways does the Bible actually inform, like, your, your day to day? Like, I know that we've mentioned some things before. Maybe you could even just give us an example because I think that might even help people to recognize, like, if people are studying the Bible. I think sometimes the mistake is that the Bible is just this platitude of morality, right? Like, we all want to be better people in general, and then if we study the Bible, then I can walk away just being integrous. What we try to say, at least as Bible teachers, is that the Bible really is, in a very real sense, a light to your path. It gives you instruction for how you do strategy for your business. It gives you instruction for how you should deal with hiring employees, sometimes even firing employees. Discipline, what kind of contracts you're taking, who you're getting into business with. You know, there's a number of things I think that we're saying, man, like, the Bible actually gives us insight into what we're doing that goes well beyond just, like, moral education. Not, not downplaying moral education. I'm just saying that the kind of specific ways that the Bible gives us instruction on, like, what to do next, I think that's something that we get from Bible college that I think people do need to grasp. Right? We have to take this knowledge and apply it. And I think that for us, I know that. I don't know if every Bible college does this, but we try to. For sure. It's like, how does, it's not just like, let's just learn this, the historical context and what this meant, but really spending a lot of time on, like, what does this mean for us today? You know, and how does this look in your guys context?

[00:19:42.36] - Matthew Parker

So, yeah, I don't think people make an account for what their values actually are. And the older you get, you have to actually test your values in the real world. Like on the day to day, how am I actually going to be a good person or am I going to be a jerk? Like, am I going to be able to maintain control of myself or am I going to lose control of myself because of how frustrating or stressful situation is? And I don't actually find, I don't know. When we keep talking about the moral person, I'm trying to think about it in context of construction, but, like, there's so many people out there who are cultural christians, who are in this area that we work in, but I don't find them to actually be moral when I get to know them because the values that they end up espousing are likely the values that they just learn in the everyday business world. So I think, for one, we have to decide, like, do we think our values are important when we become the kind of person who's going to be an employee within our occupation? Like, does that mean anything? I read an article some years ago about how Google and these big companies, they actually cared less about how somebody performed in school and they cared more about how they could perform on a team and their social intelligence. And so it was like that social intelligence became emphasized because it was a value for them that they would hire these coders or whoever within their industry that was going to be able to work alongside other people. But it's because they need people who can actually get along, who can conflict resolve. And I think that people don't always think about how the Bible is going to help them be able to achieve those things in the real world.

[00:21:09.31] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, I think that was going to be one of the questions I was even going to try to get at is like, what ways did the, that your Bible education prepare you for a job? And so, like, one of those things would be like, a social intelligence that you get from God's word. What would be something else that maybe you would add to that? Like, something else that you would say, like, man, this education prepare me for a job in this way.

[00:21:32.63] - Steven Carver

It's kind of a big question because there's so many things. But, like, one example would be today I was talking to some guys about how people are becoming so unwilling to invest into a job or a company where, you know, people expect the maximum of what they're going to get right now, even if they're not worth anything, they have no experience. But, like, for MCH starting that company. You know, we started from scratch. It was a startup, so even for us, we were able to give of ourselves a lot of hours to get this business off the ground, to be able to make it into what it is today. But those initial years, it was a lot of work, and it wasn't like everybody was getting a huge paycheck at the end of each week. But knowing the scripture, there's. I mean, so much of the Bible talks about people who are able to invest into something that will have a future payoff. Even speaking in the Bible. It'll talk about heroes of faith who will invest into something where the payoff's even beyond their life. And that's not even necessarily what we're talking about at MCH all the time. But I think that's one aspect that I've been thinking about recently, is that ability to think about the future, that ability to invest into something now, knowing there will be a payoff later.

[00:23:03.09] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, that's cool.

[00:23:04.32] - Gregg Garner

So, Jeff, you're saying that you asked a question and commented, and I lost your question initially in the two questions ago.

[00:23:12.61] - Jeff Sherrod

Okay.

[00:23:13.28] - Gregg Garner

But in order to summarize and get us on that same page for our listeners, you're saying that a biblical education is more than just a moral education. And then, Parker, your contribution was, yeah, it is more than a moral education because that's not going to be sufficient. The Bible actually teaches us soft skills in including that related to a social emotional intelligence that allows for effective conflict resolution. And then, Carver, you're then adding that it also helps us to consider the cost of how we're spending our time, especially as we look to a future, and that we want that future aligned with the will of God. We want to do things that are advancing the kingdom. We want to do things that are tied to his kingdom come. His will be done on earth as it is in heaven. So, Jeff, is this where you're wanting us to go?

[00:24:08.42] - Jeff Sherrod

There's a few things I want to do. One, I wanted to ask if someone's listening to this, and the other thing about going to Bible college is they're like, I don't know if I want to get into traditional ministry. How is this preparing me? And I think that we're kind of getting somewhere there.

[00:24:20.10] - Gregg Garner

But don't you think we can just answer the question that if you don't want to get into traditional ministry, most Bible colleges are not a good fit.

[00:24:28.19] - Jeff Sherrod

For you, then, yeah, I don't know. I'd have to think.

[00:24:33.10] - Gregg Garner

I've met so many Bible professors, they don't know how to teach anything other than what Bible they know to teach. And the Bible that they're going to teach is going to be historically grammatically approached, right?

[00:24:46.09] - Jeff Sherrod

Yes.

[00:24:46.32] - Gregg Garner

And they are. You're going to be great at knowing that the 8th century prophets had these concerns with respect to the potential debt issues of the northern kingdom and their connection to the syrian empire. And they're going to get that. I agree with you. But I don't think they're going to get how reading Amos is going to translate into how a person develops the critical capacity to speak at the gate. They won't even translate what at the gate means in traditional Bible colleges. That at the gate means in the place of business, right?

[00:25:25.51] - Matthew Parker

Yeah.

[00:25:26.39] - Gregg Garner

And then to learn that they hate the one who prophesies in the gate and the prudent person should be quiet. But then there's this. There's this prophetic expectation in that book that this guy Amos, who wasn't even raised in the school of prophets, he didn't go to Bible school, is effectively what that teaching, but he was called by God, and we know he knows the word. Not going to Bible school does not mean you don't know the Bible, but you're going to get to learn the Bible again with the kind of academic accountability that's going to propel you far beyond your own ability to study on your own. Nonetheless, Amos, there he is now in the gate in the place of business, and he is speaking the word of the Lord. And it's having an impact on how it is society functions on the pragmatic. But at a traditional Bible school, I think most people's sermons are going to be encouraged to stay away from talking about business, stay away from addressing current events outside of making someone aware that they're happening. And then how, as christians, we need to have hope and we need to pray for our leaders, like very platitudes. So I'm not sure that I can endorse every Bible college as being the place for a student who does not want to go into traditional ministry. And I would say that there are a Bible professors, maybe their school wouldn't like me to say this because, or the administration, just because, you know, they want enrollees, but the professors themselves, they would be like, no, I'm unashamedly very happy to prepare people for the pulpit.

[00:27:00.95] - Jeff Sherrod

Right? Yes.

[00:27:02.10] - Gregg Garner

And that's what I want to do. I'm not trying to prepare you to be one of these guys. So I think that a person listening has to know that not all Bible schools are the same. Not all christian liberal arts schools are the same, and that you have to be discerning. And in that case, this podcast is helpful because it's going to give you some questions to ask, like, how will you guys attend to my social intelligence, my social emotional intelligence during my time at school with you? And what are the things that you're doing? And if all they do is tell you, you take a psychology class on it and you take a workplace ready course on it, but they don't give you any venue for how it is you actually have that tested, because for you guys, I would imagine just knowing the school that you graduated from, that there are certain axioms or implicits that you guys aren't making explicit because it was just part of your trajectory. So, for example, when you're talking about conflict resolution, are you talking about how you learned that at all in the classroom? Are you talking about in the community of people who then learned the value and then had to figure out how to manifest it in the safety of christian covenant community? Like, what are you talking about?

[00:28:21.69] - Matthew Parker

Yeah, I mean, I think the second.

[00:28:23.45] - Gregg Garner

So it was informal. It was not.

[00:28:24.86] - Matthew Parker

Well, no, no, it was formal. I guess I was going to say it was a combination of the two. Like, learn it in the classroom. So you learn the technicality behind conflict resolution passages, but then you have to actually practice them, which I would say the majority of people are terrible at. And I even struggle with it, and I know the passages I've gone through conflict resolution with good friends. But if it's not tested within the safety of a covenant community, then if you just go to school and you get spit out after getting a degree, and you're out in the world and there's people who don't share your values, I think it becomes very discombobulating experience.

[00:28:58.44] - Gregg Garner

And I think it's important to note, and I can't speak on behalf of all Bible colleges. That's not why this show exists. Right. We're here because we know our undergrad experiences. I think you and I have gone to at least three or four well together, probably six or seven different Bible schools through the course of our different degrees in education. But we now work at the institute, and we serve at the Institute for Global Outreach Developments. So we're going to talk about that. And in that context of this school, it's part of our system. Like, we have systematized these venues of opportunity so that a student takes what's conceptual and gets to actualize in the safety of this, like, semi simulated environment. Right. All christian schools, I think I know. For me, I went to Azusa Pacific University in the nineties, and the communication was, this is a bubble. The christian school bubble. Did you guys at your other schools get that bubble? You know, every school has a bubble. There's nothing wrong with that. Every school has a bubble because it is that semi simulated environment that is, should be a classroom in and of itself. But if a Bible college is like, well, you know, Parker, like, everybody gets that opportunity. Our students, we teach them, and we hope they're working things out. I heard a story at the dorms. They had a fight, and they, like, we're not talking about that here at the institute. We're talking about institutionalized, systematic ways that are not just. I mean, they just fall short of provoking these values into students. But, you know, I'd say on the lighter side, we say promoting. Promoting these values and. And saying, hey, if you're going to be at this school, we're not just concerned with the grades that show up as a result of how you're doing in class. Like, we. We assign every student a mentor. So they're having conversations constantly with someone who's a little bit ahead of them. They have these routine meetings weekly, whether it's through the professional development program or it's. It's the chapel programming or their accountability groups. Like, there's. There's just several systematic venues of opportunity for people to develop social, emotional intelligence. And it's scripted. It's. It's. It's part of who we are. It's prescriptive. So I think it's important for a student who's listening to know not all colleges are intentional and conscious of the. And a key word for us would be the holistic development of a disciple of Jesus who is going to be matured into a laborer for the kingdom of God, and we're very conscious of it.

[00:31:32.86] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:31:33.54] - Gregg Garner

But again, would you agree with me, Jeff?

[00:31:35.09] - Jeff Sherrod

No, I think that's really helpful. I think that.

[00:31:36.96] - Gregg Garner

So you would not agree with me?

[00:31:38.90] - Jeff Sherrod

I'm agreeing with you.

[00:31:39.86] - Gregg Garner

Oh, I said, would you agree with me? No.

[00:31:43.53] - Jeff Sherrod

Until I agree with you, I was.

[00:31:45.56] - Gregg Garner

Like, that's cool, man. Conflict resolution. Let's model it. Let's do.

[00:31:49.33] - Jeff Sherrod

I definitely agree with you. I think that's real helpful, because there are some Bible colleges that are, like, we're only trying to train people for the pastorate.

[00:31:56.68] - Gregg Garner

Right? And God bless.

[00:31:57.64] - Jeff Sherrod

That's what they're about. But if you look at, like, for instance, we fill out for our school. We fill out this report every year for the government that says, how many of your students who have graduated have been placed in field? Which means, like, you got a degree that's relevant, or you're working in a field that's relevant to your degree. And if you. Steve, if you work in construction, graduate from the institute, and doing what you're doing, I'm writing yes on that. Cause to me, that's placed in field. You're, like, carrying these values, God's word, in your environment. You're doing the things you're doing. But I also. Greg, I think this is really helpful. Like, that's not just happening in the classroom. We have institutionalized this. So I think that if people are listening to this, they gotta say, ask the question, like, all right, so this many students are going into fields that are not traditional ministry. How is the school preparing those students? Because this is gonna be really hard if you're like, all right, I learned the Bible. Now I gotta figure out all the rest of it on my own. Yeah, super tough.

[00:32:51.91] - Gregg Garner

Yeah, it's really hard. So, for us, within the context of our curriculum, we have. We don't call them minors at our college. We call them occupational focuses. And this has only been formally institutionalized in the last several years. These guys actually graduated prior to them being formally institutionalized. Just because we were running, we were effectively beta testing through iterations of how to make all that happen. And you guys were part of that test work, and a big reason why we're very proud to offer it, because it produced guys like you. But, like, attending to it with intentionality and saying, okay, what are the essential things that students need to learn? So they could be not just workplace ready, but workplace ready for a specific trajectory of a career.

[00:33:43.41] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:33:44.02] - Gregg Garner

And how it. Like, I think there needs to be a shift, too, amongst employers with respect to who they hire. And it's the responsibility of a college like us to produce the kind of students that become the kind of laborers or employees would be the term we would use to fit in this discussion. But, guys, employees are laborers. But to become the kind of employees that shine so bright in their various fields that they have to be asked the question, where'd you go to school? And then the shocking answer. Bible school.

[00:34:22.42] - Matthew Parker

Right? Yeah.

[00:34:23.21] - Gregg Garner

Because I know. I know you're all the people you all work with and the different clientele, and you guys are rock stars in your field in the Nashville area, and that is just telling the truth. That's who you guys are. I know that you're not going to speak about yourselves like that. But I can. So I know that when I've heard people talk about you guys, it's. There's never any criticism with respect to your capacity for the occupation itself. Like, they. Your. Your value is high. Like, you guys are incredibly competent. But the. The paradox of consideration is you were not formally trained for it in the way that perhaps you would have been if you listen to your mom in Atlanta and. And just went to business school. So you become. What is your title again?

[00:35:12.23] - Matthew Parker

The director of business development? I actually haven't. When you said it, it made me laugh.

[00:35:17.88] - Gregg Garner

You're welcome, bro. But isn't that God's humor? To some degree, that's the Lord's humor. He's like, I got your mom and I got your son. It'll all come together here in about 15 years. But, I mean, like, you. You did not formally. You did not get that business degree, as it were. You got Bible degrees. Actually, I think you have three Bible degrees.

[00:35:39.53] - Matthew Parker

Yeah, I have an undergraduate, two undergrads and masters.

[00:35:42.57] - Gregg Garner

Wait, you have three undergrads?

[00:35:44.46] - Matthew Parker

No, just two. One for moody. Okay. Yeah

[00:35:48.05] - Gregg Garner

Gotcha. All right, so then. And then your master's in theological studies.

[00:35:52.00] - Matthew Parker

Community development.

[00:35:52.44] - Gregg Garner

Community development, yeah. Which is Bible heavy. So when we actually. It's a master's in missiology.

[00:35:59.92] - Matthew Parker

Oh, yeah.

[00:36:00.40] - Steven Carver

Yeah.

[00:36:00.65] - Matthew Parker

Mine was the earlier one.

[00:36:01.73] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. So. Gosh, it's just so cool. And I would say the same for you, Steven, that you guys are incredibly competent within your field of focus, like your occupation. But at the same time, I think there was grace on how God was allowing us to operate, because you guys did have to go through a lot of work to pave the way. But where we're at now as an institution, we've been able to learn through how all this happened for everybody and then systematize so effectively. At the institute, there are five classes that get them ready for a specific occupation. And at the end of a Bible degree, a student receives some form of certification or licensing or something that acknowledges that they have some either entry level or intermediate proficiency within that occupational focus. Something that you guys did. I mean, I remember both of you studying for your plumbing exam and then your mechanical one. Now, that's just part of our program. So, like, a Bible student who now takes this occupational trajectory, maybe they get inspired, because it's not, you know, it was a joke to say because Jesus is a carpenter. You guys picked this up. But, like, who is going to overlook someone like the new covenant language in Jeremiah? That's like. Listen, you guys you're going to be busy when you go into exile and you're going to be praying for the welfare of that city, because in it you're going to find your welfare. So here's what the plan is. You got to build some houses, and on top of that, you got to get involved in food production and you're going to integrate because even your kids are going to marry the people who are in that area. Most people don't even know how to read Jeremiah that way. And the Bible teachers are going to teach Jeremiah and they're probably going to get really excited, excited about the fact that he is now prophesying the new covenant, which is the coming of the testament of the Christ, and what he's going to do for us with respect to atonement, which is fantastic and wonderful and we love it. But gosh, we're missing a whole heck of a lot when we don't know how to read what's there. And I think for a lot of these, these Bible professors, they, they're probably in a place, especially right now, the way Bible schools are, where I'm just tired of having christian colleges where the, the mantra is like, we don't have any money, teachers get paid terribly. And it just, it has everything to do with the fact that we are not catching up to where we need to be with respect to the times. And I think I'm happy about where we're at right now because it's pushing ministry colleges, bible schools to have to reevaluate what it is that they're trying to do. And I do think that there's going to be three types of schools that emerge at the end, outside of the one that just stops. So the first one is, we're done. That Bible school and legacy is over. And that's happening all the time. The second would be we're going to now invest into becoming a liberal arts school so we can offer a variety of majors and we're going to maintain our christian faith. All fantastic, right? But it's hard to compete with 120 units in Bible versus twelve. Like, you're taking 10% of what a Bible college student does. And then there's going to be other Bible colleges. There's a third option then, or the second, because the first one falling apart is not what we're talking about. The second one would be, you just stick to preparing people for traditional ministerial roles. They're going to go into the pastorate, they're going to be missionaries, they're going to be youth pastors or whatever. And then I think there's this third one, which we would call alternative because it's not mainstream, it's not something every school is doing. And I'm very proud to say that the Institute for Global Arts Development is an alternative Bible school in that way. Because we do teach the Bible. It is the curriculum. And within that we are able to tie the lines between vocation and occupation and help a student recognize that man, when you learn to read the Bible, just even physiologically, the way that God expands our neuroplasticity, plasticity, our cognitive development at large, allows us to approach problem solving in ways that are innovative. And not only are you attacking a problem with your own mind, you're now attacking that problem with the mind of Christ. That's right. Yeah, right. Like if you want somebody, because the Bible's not preparing you to be a grunt, no offense, out there, if you're working lower level kind of stuff and you're doing the day to day and you like the no stress, and you're just happy to do that, you know, praise the Lord. Don't learn the Bible though, because if you're going to learn the Bible, the Bible is going to put you in a place where you are exercising the mind of Christ. And by exercising the mind of Christ, you are taking a position that is going to project vision and strategy and is going to get people seen beyond their years, beyond their time, beyond their generation. And that is in many ways, by definition, what creates leaders. That's what makes leaders. So the Bible is indeed learning it. You will become a kingdom of priests. Priests aren't like the guys who are just receiving all the commands, doing all the work. The priests are the guys who are receiving from God the direction and the vision, and then for the community, helping them to take the steps necessary to get them where they need to go. So to have a biblically literate professional in your organization, employers are going to wake up to this. They're going to wake up and they're going to go, man, I do want someone like that. But we do have to get away from thinking that christian culture equals biblical values. And we're going to have to become very discerning to see that biblical values should trump. Why I'm bringing that up is like, take for example, Paul's words to Timothy, and he's talking about someone who is working in the community. And he says that they're laboring both in education, through teaching, but they're also making proclamations or in otherwise they're community organizing, helping people to inspire them to do the next things in leadership. He says, these people are worthy of double honor. This is not like I'm gonna bow even lower and respect to you or give you more shout outs. This is like increased income. This is not gonna be taught at a bible school. Right. Nobody's, in fact, at the Bible school. You're gonna hear a crying administrator talk about how for the last 25 years, they sacrificed their income to be able to do ministry and teach, and they're gonna. They're gonna lament a little bit on the inside how they weren't able to do certain things for their kids and stuff. And I feel for them, and I get it. That's been the culture. That's not the future. The future is that we implement the Bible, and then we implement the Bible. We recognize that those people who take on this heavy load and this heavy burden, the Bible explicitly commands double honor. Boasting that your school underpays its leadership is not a cool thing. And I don't know if anyone is boasting it. I should probably track that. But having to say it at all is. Is not cool. I want the. The whole thing needs to change, and I'm excited to be a part of how to change that. And guys like you are evidence for us that we're on the right track. So thank you for everything you guys do and how you serve.

[00:43:43.15] - Matthew Parker

Yeah.

[00:43:43.46] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. It's the. It's the future, I think, talking to you guys, because I think that this space, that third alternative route, you know, that's where I think there's so many interesting discussions that need to have. That need to take place.

[00:43:54.65] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. And I think because they haven't said anything, too. I think it's also important that. That both of you are involved in what people would call more traditional ministry leadership as well. I mean, you serve as a pastor at a church and on the missions pastor, in fact. And you work with missions in Latin America specifically, and you are working with immigrants and refugees in the greater Nashville area and helping to create for them curriculums that allow them to assimilate into the culture in an effective way that is in the interest of both christian community and God's will for seeing that people are able to, we'll use the language of the prophets, sit under their own fig tree, and enjoy the fruit off that vine, but also in the interests of the state that wants english speaking employees. And, I mean, you guys do this stuff on top of the jobs that you manage, and you both handle it very well.

[00:44:57.82] - Matthew Parker

Yeah, I think, too, that comes from.

[00:45:00.40] - Gregg Garner

A person who's got the word written on their heart. You can't carry all that and not feel stressed out. A person has to be able to go. The yoke is easy. The burden is light if they have come to Jesus. Remember when Jesus is like, come to me if you are heavy laden burden to get rest. His explanation as to what will happen when you go to him is that he will teach us because he's humble and gentle. We'll find rest on our souls because he teaches us and he teaches us within the context of our labor. And I just think so many people out there, good christians, good, meaningful people who want to serve the Lord, they don't even know how to conceptualize any of this. And so it becomes very, very tiring.

[00:45:41.21] - Matthew Parker

I was thinking about Matthew 13 when Jesus is teaching the kingdom parables. You know, it's the man who finds a treasure in the field, the merchant who has the pearl a great price, and then the fishermen who, you know, their net fills and so overflowed. And I was actually reflecting on this morning how, you know, each one of those are occupational situations, like the field. When you look at that greek word, it's aggravated.

[00:46:02.51] - Gregg Garner

Once your eyes are open to all this stuff, you know, like, you can't stop seeing it. You can't stop seeing that. Wow. Jesus was not dichotomized with respect to how he was discipling the community of Israel, right?

[00:46:17.17] - Matthew Parker

And part of, like, you know, we're going to find the kingdom of God in our occupations because we're going to become industry leaders who are going to set the tone for what's going to happen for this next generation. But we're going to do it very responsibly because we're going to have God's word as our foundation, not like, good ideas or what people are talking about on social media. Like, we have a foundation that's strong, that'll withstand the storms. And I think, like, the older you get, the more storms you experience, like, what your values are and what Bible is in you does get tested. And you have to be humble to admit at times, like, man, it didn't come out the way that I wanted to, but, gosh, I want to have that kind of kingdom revelation in my everyday life. And I feel bad for people who are working. And it's like, work is the thing that they don't love. It's a thing where they don't find a lot of life in, but it's the majority of their life, and they have to do that for 40, 50 years, but they try to find meaning in the small other aspects of their life. Whereas for God's people, seems like we should have that revelation of the kingdom in our daily lives.

[00:47:13.32] - Gregg Garner

That's really.

[00:47:13.75] - Matthew Parker

And it should be really fun, I.

[00:47:15.36] - Gregg Garner

Think, as a thing to add to the conversation, I think it's important that our listeners know we are in no way condemning anybody in any way with respect to how they've done things, what they're currently doing. Of course, all we're doing is we're hoping and we're dreaming, and we are accountable to what it is we've seen and learned in the word of God. And we want to be a part of creating the opportunities for the next generation to enter into that rest, because the rest is important. It's a biblical value. It's thematic from beginning to end. And the laborers of the kingdom of God are supposed to be focused on the greatness that's attached to looking at a kid and going like, you know, we've got to receive this child into the world. We got to make this world hospitable for them. And it just. It gets me so excited for future students coming into the institute because of the labor that you guys have done and the way that it set the tone for how it is that they could even advance what it is that you're talking about, because, I mean, gosh, we have to become the leaders in all these industries. We have to become the people who are impacting our societies in such a way that the birds rest in the branches. Like, that's so important. And if you don't know what that parable means, think about it a little bit. We'll talk about it another time. But it is really important to Jesus vision, not our vision, Jesus vision for how his disciples should contribute to the well being of the world around him.

[00:48:47.44] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, absolutely. Matt. Steve, thanks so much for being here with us today. We had a great conversation. For all you guys out here listening, as you can tell, this is a rich topic. There's a lot to talk about here. I mean, when people are talking about their occupation, this is what we spend most of our life doing. So having God's word to influence our decisions for how it relates to college, how it relates to preparation, even while we're at college, is super important. If you're one of those colleges, like, I'm looking for that third space as well, and I want to have some interesting conversations about that. Reach out to us. If you are a student, prospective student or parent, you're like, that's an interesting thing. I also want to talk more about that. That as well. Also reached out to us. As always, please share this episode with your friends, your family, people that are looking for Bible colleges. Until then, we'll see you guys next time.