S2E28: There's Hope for Higher Ed in the midst of College Shutdowns
Summary: Jeff Sherrod and Laurie Kagay host Dave Medders, Executive Vice President for The Association for Biblical Higher Education, discusses the role of Christian higher ed in shaping future leaders through discipleship. After a career as a college president, Medders now visits dozens of college campuses annually, and spoke on the hope for higher ed. This is a timely podcast as much of the news has covered the failure of higher ed, and specifically a large number of Christian colleges shutting down. In the midst of that, Medders stresses the need for flexibility, spiritual leadership, and listening to God's voice in shaping the future of education.
S2E28: There's Hope for Higher Ed in the midst of College Shutdowns
Transcript - Wed, 07 Aug 2024 17:09:12 GMT
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 17:09:12 GMT, Duration: [00:37:26.89]
[00:00:10.69] - Jeff Sherrod
Hey, everybody, and welcome back to College Conversations. My name is Jeff Sherrod. I'm here with Laurie Kagay. And today, we have the honor of having mister Dave Medders. Dave is the executive vice president at the Association for Biblical Higher Education, which, you know, isn't the accreditor that we work with, but you guys also do ton of other stuff besides just accreditation. You do professional development, work with other schools, live training. I've been to a lot of your guys' professional development seminars. So, yeah, does that. He, has been with ABHE since two thousand nine.
[00:00:44.79] - Dave Medders
I know
[00:00:45.20] - Jeff Sherrod
I'm trying to give you a little bit of a thing, but then then
[00:00:46.70] - Dave Medders
then then Fifteen years.
[00:00:47.39] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. Fifteen years. And then you were a pastor for more than
[00:00:50.39] - Dave Medders
how many years Eleven years?
[00:00:51.89] - Jeff Sherrod
Eleven years. So yeah. And I think that you were one of the first people I met when I went to my first conference at ABHE. I think that that stood out to me because, you know, you you're a great greeter.
[00:01:02.50] - Laurie Kagay
He's he's a fan favorite. Yeah. Fan favorite. That's yeah. ABHE. You're gonna know Medders and love Medders.
[00:01:08.59] - Dave Medders
Right. I'm the ABHE cheerleader.
[00:01:10.50] - Jeff Sherrod
You are, and you do a great job. So I remember meeting you
[00:01:12.79] - Dave Medders
That's my real job.
[00:01:13.59] - Jeff Sherrod
What's your what's your name? And I felt I'm you did a great job. I felt very much at home.
[00:01:17.29] - Dave Medders
Good. So Yeah.
[00:01:18.40] - Jeff Sherrod
I I really appreciate that. So, yeah, I think one of the things that I'm really excited about for this podcast is, yeah, Dave Dave is a great storyteller too, so I'm excited to hear some of your stories. Like, and so a
[00:01:29.29] - Jeff Sherrod
Some are true is what we've been told.
[00:01:31.09] - Laurie Kagay
You have a lot of years in higher ed too. Right?
[00:01:33.70] - Dave Medders
Going on thirty four years. Yeah.
[00:01:35.29] - Laurie Kagay
Yeah. So can you tell
[00:01:36.40] - Dave Medders
I'm not that old, but I some years down more than once. Yeah.
[00:01:40.29] - Laurie Kagay
That's right. What roles did you play in in at what schools?
[00:01:44.20] - Dave Medders
So in two thousand in nineteen ninety, excuse me, I was recruited to be president of Bethany Bible College in New Brunswick, Canada. That's in, east of Maine. And so served there for nineteen years or some would say nineteen winters. And Then Ralph recruited me to come to ABHE. Yeah. So my first annual meeting, as both of you are familiar with, that was in nineteen ninety. Okay. That was my first taste, and I thought we were isolated on the edge of the continent up there.
[00:02:14.09] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:02:14.69] - Dave Medders
But the networking and the sense of camaraderie right. Was huge.
[00:02:18.40] - Jeff Sherrod
Oh, yeah.
[00:02:19.09] - Dave Medders
And that was a beginning of God planting a seed of how valuable it is that his body works together.
[00:02:25.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:02:26.30] - Dave Medders
And so I served there till two thousand and nine when I came to ABHE.
[00:02:29.90] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. That's great.
[00:02:31.09] - Dave Medders
Like yesterday. It feels
[00:02:32.90] - Jeff Sherrod
like yesterday. Yeah. I think the other thing that I'm excited too is that you've you know, over the fourteen, fifteen years that you've been with ABHE, how many how many schools do you visit every year, would you say?
[00:02:42.69] - Dave Medders
I don't know.
[00:02:43.90] - Jeff Sherrod
But that's a dozen. Maybe I
[00:02:46.30] - Dave Medders
should say a dozen. A A
[00:02:47.09] - Jeff Sherrod
A A dozen. Yeah. So and you've been doing that for years and years. So
[00:02:49.50] - Dave Medders
Some years more than that. Right. Yeah. Last year, we visited all nineteen of the ABHE institutions across Canada Yeah. Seeing the impact of the of the pandemic Yeah. Etcetera.
[00:03:00.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. So I think, you know, that gives you a unique perspective that, you know, Laurie and I don't have. You know, we're mostly in in one college space, and then we meet other people who are in other colleges. But you've you know, you're traveling to so many different colleges. And I think one of the things I was interested in talking about is that we were talking about before even yesterday when we were talking is that there is news. Christian higher education is certainly in the news. You know, there's there's closings that are reported about, and I do think that there is a reality that, like, salacious news sells. Yeah. So it's the negative news that's gonna get that's gonna get out there. But, you know, there also is statistic that says even with the closings, you know, Christian higher education, I think, represents about fifteen percent of the total colleges that are out there, but it represents more than fifty percent of the closures that are there. So it hits Christian higher education disproportionately, to other things. I think that one of the things that you always say is that future is, I've heard you say it so many times, future is bright at ABHE. And I think that's something that we would say too, is like when we're working with students, when we're talking to parents, like, we're we have so much hope And it's so right. right.
[00:04:03.30] - Dave Medders
right. right. For
[00:04:03.59] - Jeff Sherrod
what's happening. So I guess my question would be, or maybe you can kinda start off here, is are we, like, people that are standing on a sinking ship and saying, it's all looking awesome? What do you think? No. No. I don't think so either yet.
[00:04:17.50] - Dave Medders
I'd and, you know, there's a a lot of dynamics that play into it. And because biblical higher education is a part of Christian higher education and higher education broadly, and that's in Tumult. Right. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out. And in Tumult, there's things that have been around for years and size is not a guarantee. I don't care how large you are, how small you are. The difference may be cushioned, but every institution, they can't make bad decisions, with impunity.
[00:04:48.80] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. Mhmm.
[00:04:49.39] - Dave Medders
And so it calls on astute leadership, but in my judgment, because of the unique relationship to the mission of Christ, If I wanted to drive a big stake down of my optimism, and I've never been more enthusiastic, and part of it is because of situation just like this. As I travel across the association and having been around for thirty four years, I've seen the emergence of a whole new generation of leaders across the people of higher education. That's huge. Oh, yeah. That is absolutely huge, and it's it's the evidence, compelling, irrefutable evidence that God is calling and equipping. And where God calls and equips, his grace is sufficient to give us insight to what the opportunities are in how how to make the most of those as Paul would write in Ephesians. Yeah. And so that's what I see happening is leaders who are looking at their opportunities and saying, how can we I'm quoting here from Ephesians five. How can we live wisely unto the Lord? Mhmm.
[00:05:50.00] - Jeff Sherrod
And
[00:05:50.19] - Dave Medders
that's the proper use of resources. Right? Right. But make the most of the opportunities. Mhmm. And as you know, just several verses later, which leads to this, he's gonna say, so therefore be filled with the spirit.
[00:06:01.80] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:06:03.19] - Dave Medders
So if you wanted to say, so what's a unique role of biblical higher education? If if leaders in biblical higher education and I don't wanna overstate this, but that's what I
[00:06:18.50] - Jeff Sherrod
see is
[00:06:19.30] - Dave Medders
and I I don't wanna overstate this, but that's what I see is men and women who are hungry for God. Right. And God is at
[00:06:27.39] - Jeff Sherrod
work. Yeah.
[00:06:28.19] - Dave Medders
You know? And and if I was gonna be negative, it would be with the assumption that God has watched his hands of humanity and said, I don't care anymore. Well, that's not that's not god. No. Right. He cares. Mhmm. And when he cares, he moves people to be his extended hands and feet. Yeah. And that's living on the crest of the wave.
[00:06:46.30] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. Yeah. Yeah. We know that. I mean, I think even along those lines, like, God's not pulling away from us because and I think that he's also not pulling away from educating people either. I mean, this was the thing that we see first in the garden that God's gonna walk with them in the cooler day and teach them. Yep. You know, education has always been part of how this is supposed to work out. I'm gonna bring them together. It.
[00:07:06.69] - Dave Medders
We we know how much that's needed.
[00:07:08.89] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:07:09.89] - Dave Medders
Yeah. It's not just zeal.
[00:07:12.30] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. Love zeal. But Yeah.
[00:07:16.19] - Dave Medders
But without training, without the discipleship. And when he said go and make disciples, teaching them to observe everything. And that was the ministry of Christ. He taught, he preached, he healed, And he said, pray the lord of the harvest to send out workers. Mhmm. Workers gotta go through the through the same thing. Right?
[00:07:32.69] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. Yeah. That's something we
[00:07:35.60] - Laurie Kagay
say is, yeah, you have to be you have to go through the discipleship process before you can be a laborer in that harvest. Student before a worker. Student before a worker. Yeah.
[00:07:43.60] - Dave Medders
Where the Hebrew writer says, and Christ learned obedience through the things that he suffered. If Christ had to learn. Hello?
[00:07:51.89] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. Here we are. Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things that we say is, like, you know, we're we do feel like bible colleges are uniquely set up to be one of the best discipleship grounds that's that's around. Absolutely. And I think that and I I'm not trying we we've talked about this a little bit on the podcast before. Like, that's not downplaying the unique role of churches, of course. Like, they they have it. But, like, what we can do when a student gets out of their environment and they come and you know, it's traditional students that we used to. They come and live here on campus, and we're engaging with them daily, daily prayers, daily. That's different than what many churches are able to
[00:08:29.30] - Dave Medders
I think exponentially so. Yeah.
[00:08:31.30] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:08:31.50] - Laurie Kagay
And there's there's a reason, you know, God called Abraham. Leave your father's house and your country and your nation. Like, Jesus called his disciples, like, drop your net. Like, there's something about that.
[00:08:42.00] - Jeff Sherrod
Yep. Displacement. Displacement. Yeah.
[00:08:45.60] - Laurie Kagay
That preceding education that marks a really important moment.
[00:08:49.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:08:49.89] - Laurie Kagay
Yeah. Moment with the Lord. I think you're gonna say something.
[00:08:52.20] - Dave Medders
And I think I think the partnership with a local church you know, my dad was a pastor for forty six years, so he pastored several generations. Mhmm. But at some point, kids often leave home. They go out to wherever. So who picks up that baton? In my judgment, that's where the Bible College Movement plays a unique role of saying we're here with you. I heard one president say that we are partners with parents and churches with God. Right.
[00:09:19.20] - Jeff Sherrod
That's a good way to say it.
[00:09:20.50] - Dave Medders
And and we're the bridge of getting them ready to follow Christ with all of their heart into their future.
[00:09:26.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:09:26.79] - Dave Medders
And it's amazing the convergence that happens during a reasonably short period of time of what four years high intense Mhmm. Experiential, relational, but going deeper with God and making decisions. And it was true with me. There are stakes that are driven that hold you for your lifetime. Yeah. Decisions that you make.
[00:09:47.70] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. As a young person. Yeah.
[00:09:49.20] - Dave Medders
Yep. And you make them, and many people do, as a part of their local church. But during the college time and I know it's not the same for all, but during the college season is a time when they own it themselves. Yeah. It's like a a person that gets out from under the shade of their parents' tree or their local church's tree. They cast their own shadow and say, yep, I own who I am before God. Right. And this is who I, in my heart, am determined to be, fully devoted to Christ.
[00:10:17.70] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. Yeah. So I think that and I think this is the confidence I think that we have. It's not just that although there are great ideas happening within Christian higher education, Bible colleges, But our confidence is in the Lord that, you know, he is gonna build his church, and that means part of church is education and God's word. Yep. And that's so that's, I think, the confidence that we have. Right? This might look different even as we keep going along and years come, but the fact that young people are gonna be trained as discipleships, this is God's business. So as long as people are saying yes to God
[00:10:47.20] - Laurie Kagay
It's God's business, so he'll make sure.
[00:10:49.20] - Jeff Sherrod
He'll make sure this works. Yeah. And so there's a lot of optimism when you believe that God's been doing this for a long time. He's gonna continue doing it.
[00:10:55.70] - Dave Medders
And it's interesting, the parallel on this, where students come to learn. Right? But leaders in Bible colleges, a part of the qualification for them is that they are lifelong learners
[00:11:05.70] - Laurie Kagay
That's right.
[00:11:06.29] - Dave Medders
Listening to God about how to lead in this current environment. Yeah. Mhmm. How to lead wisely in this current environment to where God has promised to be with us to the end of the age, but it doesn't necessarily say, okay. Now you've learned a few things, and now go do them for the rest of your life. Is that there's an ongoing responsibility for us to listen carefully to God and know when to turn, when to go, when to stop Right. So that we're in step with the spirit.
[00:11:30.39] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. Yeah. There's a heavy calling, right, and responsibility that we have as college leaders to make sure that we're doing that. We're not setting up a system once and be like, alright. Let it just go. Yeah. We gotta
[00:11:41.10] - Dave Medders
Or that we've learned all there is to know about it is that the greatest learners in biblical higher education are the people that lead.
[00:11:48.70] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. I agree with this.
[00:11:49.89] - Dave Medders
Yeah. And it keeps you humble to say the least.
[00:11:53.29] - Jeff Sherrod
Real because you are constantly humbled by how it's working out. So, yeah, what I wanted to talk about today, we've kind of hit a couple of these things, talking about leadership, but maybe if we could talk about just a couple themes maybe that you're seeing as you're traveling, visiting schools. What are some of the things that you're seeing that you're just excited about that's happening in biblical high higher education?
[00:12:12.60] - Dave Medders
So there's three or four things that just immediately come to mind. One is innovation. Okay. No question about that.
[00:12:18.20] - Jeff Sherrod
What's that what is what what what are some just give us some examples here.
[00:12:21.10] - Dave Medders
So I'm gonna, first of all, tie it to a biblical paradigm on this where Christ said, you don't put new wine into old wineskins. Mhmm. I believe with all my heart, we're in the period of a transition of wineskins. Mhmm. And if I wanna say this as tenderly as I know how, is that wineskins have to be in the business of renewal. Yeah. That's innovation. That that's a biblical model of innovation, And not all wineskins can reinvent themselves. Right. And you might even say, and I don't mean it harshly, but not all wineskins deserve to last forever. Mhmm. Some need to be, if you will, put out to dry. Yeah. But the challenge is innovation. I'll use one example as Highlands down in Birmingham, Alabama to where their classrooms are not classrooms. They call them labs. And so people that are gonna be youth pastors, they go into a lab like they would lead a youth group. I happen to have a grandson in one of those in Huntsville.
[00:13:22.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Okay.
[00:13:23.39] - Dave Medders
And who is sensing a calling towards youth ministry, and it's because of the ministry of their youth pastor in their local church there in Huntsville. They train people to be youth pastors in a lab training in the same thing for worship leading or pastoring where you preach, etcetera. So rethinking the process of from classical higher education to what does it mean to prepare people to do ministry.
[00:13:48.20] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:13:49.10] - Dave Medders
And while it begins with, if you will, ministry vocational kind of things, it expands into all vocations.
[00:13:55.79] - Jeff Sherrod
Yes.
[00:13:56.79] - Dave Medders
Yep. And I see that in different places where people are being trained to do a growing array of professional things with a biblical foundation. And we would say, so the innovation is married with a biblical mission, to live on mission with Christ, but as this, an agricultural leader or, a doctor or a teacher or you name it, social worker. Yeah. So that's revamping the curriculum to provide a quality higher education experience, but it's innovative
[00:14:31.60] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:14:31.79] - Dave Medders
And it's highly practical. Right. And I I mean,
[00:14:35.10] - Jeff Sherrod
that can be and I think one of the challenges because I think that we try best to be innovative as well, here at the institute, but it can be challenging to talk to parents about this. Right? Because, you know, they went to a a model, and their their questions is, well, what's the major that's gonna prepare them for the job, and when are they in classes? And so, you know, Laurie does a lot of our
[00:14:54.70] - Laurie Kagay
Yeah. Sometimes it's hard to sell something that they haven't seen. You know, they're kind of going back to the lion's skin, what's the style? And I'm trying to say, for us, you get a biblical education, and then you get real world experience in the professional, you know, environment to learn while doing and discover who you are, how God made you and how God's word, you know, it can infiltrate that field.
[00:15:17.29] - Jeff Sherrod
Sure.
[00:15:18.39] - Laurie Kagay
But it it can be hard because they're they're used to a different wineskin. Or but does that prepare them in the same way as the major? I'm like, actually better. You know? I I was one of those students who went to I
[00:15:29.29] - Jeff Sherrod
went to Somehow these models that might be dying were like, well, can I still do it? You know? But we have to change because things are changing. Yeah.
[00:15:36.89] - Dave Medders
And in a sense, it's recovering an ancient Mhmm. Where training was done by guilds. Right. And people chose, and they learned from people who were good at something.
[00:15:45.79] - Jeff Sherrod
Mhmm.
[00:15:46.20] - Dave Medders
And knowledge was passed on in a very personal way. Right. I think it's returning to some of that. Yeah.
[00:15:51.79] - Jeff Sherrod
I think so too. Which I'm
[00:15:52.89] - Laurie Kagay
thankful, Jesus.
[00:15:53.70] - Dave Medders
Also, you
[00:15:54.50] - Laurie Kagay
know, noted. I have a new commandment that's not new. You know? Like, that's kinda how it feels. Exactly. Here's this here's this new idea, except it's been practiced for generations and it's
[00:16:03.50] - Jeff Sherrod
for I think that kids want that. I mean, there's, like, you know, there there you know, the growing trade school movement. Right? I think kids are even wanting to be, like, I wanna do something practical, but I also wanna, like, have a friend and meet adult partners during this thing where I'm not just. You know, I I think COVID online learning has shifted the demographic back to you. Like, I want to know people.
[00:16:25.70] - Dave Medders
And so what a value in that that I hear is authenticity, where students are saying, I'm not just looking for a position, but I'm looking for a life that has authenticity of relationships, where I I know real people and share real life with them. And I think this kind of education provides that.
[00:16:46.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:16:46.79] - Dave Medders
It it has that kind of framework.
[00:16:49.20] - Jeff Sherrod
When you when you're seeing schools that are innovative, what would you say are, like, some of the like, do you think that that's kind of a top down thing that that starts president, board, and kinda goes down? Or do you think that there's, like, kind of a culture of innovation that happens throughout? Because, I mean, this is pretty drilled down. We're talking about a a faculty and a classroom and a program. You know, the college is much larger than that. So what what are you saying? Like, pockets of innovation or, like, man, this school is kind of
[00:17:14.00] - Dave Medders
I think it's a culture, and I think it's a culture. What I would say of, to quote the words of Christ, whoever has ears to hear or eyes to see. And if if the team and it could be anywhere in the team, but especially faculty, they're listening to students Yeah. And listening to God. So what are they hearing? What are they seeing? And how does that inform in the, I'm gonna say in the strategic planning, which are not it can be up, you know, top down of a president or a board that they've gone through a strategic planning process and input from everybody. But on an ongoing way, it's great if everybody has their ear to the ground. Right.
[00:17:52.70] - Laurie Kagay
Mhmm.
[00:17:53.20] - Dave Medders
Everybody.
[00:17:53.90] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:17:55.09] - Dave Medders
And then through appropriate channels, I mean, as academic dean, you're not gonna take every idea that comes through the door and say, yeah. We need to create an experience for that. But you're gonna sift that and say, one is capacity, and then is this the way the lord's leading?
[00:18:08.00] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:18:08.50] - Dave Medders
But based on the capacity of institutions, I see a growing number of institutions that are providing experiential components to their education.
[00:18:18.20] - Jeff Sherrod
Mhmm.
[00:18:19.40] - Dave Medders
That would be another and I don't wanna say that's innovative because it's been around for a long time.
[00:18:25.90] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. That's the nature of things that are radical. Right? Like, radical almost always gets back to the root of what it was at some point.
[00:18:33.59] - Dave Medders
I don't know of any time. There could be, but I don't know of any time where medical professionals didn't do a practice.
[00:18:40.70] - Laurie Kagay
Right.
[00:18:41.00] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:18:41.40] - Dave Medders
Our teachers didn't have student teaching. There have been times where people go into ministry, and they've never had field experience before then
[00:18:49.90] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:18:50.20] - Dave Medders
Which raises a different question.
[00:18:51.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:18:51.90] - Dave Medders
But now for us to say that every student going through our institution, they have real world experience where their hands are busy at the work that they've been studying, studying the history of this, studying the philosophy behind it, being spiritually prepared. They're learning how to put it into practice to where that when they go out after graduation, they have something on their resume that says it's reasonable for us to be trusted with a position of spiritual responsibility.
[00:19:18.29] - Jeff Sherrod
Yep. Mhmm.
[00:19:19.09] - Dave Medders
This is not a risk. This is I've been prepared for this. Yeah. I think that's huge.
[00:19:25.59] - Jeff Sherrod
Oh, it is. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:19:26.50] - Dave Medders
And that to me in the marketing side of it is saying to parents, it's not as simple of saying, okay. I'm taking this program of study, which was, I'm not trying to be harsh toward the past, but that was kind of a lot of assumptions in this. That just because there was a program of study meant somebody was gonna be good at it when they graduated. Right. Yeah. This is much more intense, much more testing it to where when they graduate, it's appropriate for somebody to trust them doing this because they've been doing it under supervision.
[00:20:01.00] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. Yeah. We always say, like, you you don't know what you don't know, and I think that's also true for faculty. So sometimes I'll, like, be explaining things, and then you get explaining things and then you get with them and we're traveling abroad together, you know, because we travel faculty with students and they do something that I didn't know that I should have told you that you should not do that. But now I
[00:20:19.29] - Laurie Kagay
Until until I've now seen now
[00:20:21.09] - Jeff Sherrod
do it. Seeing you do this.
[00:20:22.29] - Laurie Kagay
But it is it's special because we get
[00:20:24.09] - Jeff Sherrod
to see it. Exactly.
[00:20:25.40] - Laurie Kagay
Yeah. So that's that's the opportunity is you have enough interplay between staff and students. You you're able to catch that moment. I didn't know it was gonna be interpreted that way, but, no, not like that. Like
[00:20:35.90] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:20:36.20] - Dave Medders
Or yes. That was right. And I wanna intentionally teach that.
[00:20:40.29] - Laurie Kagay
Right.
[00:20:40.59] - Dave Medders
Or as you're out, and as you see different circumstances, you might see something and say, well, we've not been preparing specifically for that. Right. But we could.
[00:20:50.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Yep. Mhmm. Yeah. We do, we actually have one happening right now at summer youth camp, and they come and they serve all over Nashville. But our students participate in one of those weeks during the before they leave internationally. And that was, you know, that that was really great for me because, you know, I had a couple students mirror me the whole time because I helped run the summer camp, and I tried to tell them, hey, this is what we're gonna do, and then we tried to have this model of you know, we're going to Laurie, you model.
[00:21:19.09] - Laurie Kagay
Model it. Yeah. Or mentor it, monitor it, and then move on.
[00:21:24.00] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:21:24.70] - Laurie Kagay
So letting them shadow, letting them, you know, letting them see it, then letting them shadow, then watching them try it.
[00:21:31.09] - Dave Medders
Yeah. Which is exactly what Paul says, what Christ did. Right?
[00:21:34.29] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. Right.
[00:21:35.00] - Dave Medders
Imitate me as I imitate Christ.
[00:21:36.70] - Jeff Sherrod
Exactly. Yeah. And it's just that's the kind of work that I think you have to have to know what you need to do next. We need, like, more organic experiences interacting with students in a ministerial or occupational focus, be like, okay. This is what we're gonna work on next, and it helps them. Yeah. So innovation, what would you say are some other things that you're seeing? Seeing? I said innovation, but also also
[00:22:01.90] - Dave Medders
also also the practical or experiential side of education. Mhmm. Right. And I'm making that different from innovation in the sense that in one way, it's not innovation, but it's it being intentional about that. Right. There's another and it could be a subcategory under innovation as well as rediscovering what the academy can look like.
[00:22:24.29] - Jeff Sherrod
Okay.
[00:22:27.20] - Dave Medders
Not all institutions of biblical higher education, I think, in the future are going to have a a typical classical campus. They're going to be much more, lean, frugal
[00:22:40.09] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:22:42.79] - Dave Medders
Responsive. I don't know what all that'll look like. It may not happen during my lifetime. But I I think as opposed to the capital intensive model of higher education Yeah. As is typically understood of who you walk on one of these old classical campuses that include millions of dollars of investment.
[00:23:01.79] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:23:04.20] - Dave Medders
That's not, a nimble operation. Mhmm. Right. That is assuming constant things for a long time. I don't think that is a good reflection of the current higher education environment. Yeah. It's going to be more flexible than that.
[00:23:20.90] - Jeff Sherrod
I I heard another school say it, and I've adopted it because I think it captured it really well that Christian higher Christian biblical education should look campuses should look more like boot camps than country clubs. Yep. And I was like, man, I want I want a boot camp, you know, because that's what that's why we're here. Like, what what and I don't you know, if the college wants to build super nice campus, that that's great. But if they can step on campus and they can recognize day one, this is training. Yep. That's what we're about. We're training here. And then it helps across the board. You know? It's like this isn't four years just to hang out that you're gonna collect debt and then pay forever, but really get to work. That helps. So part
[00:23:59.20] - Dave Medders
of the innovation and the, rethinking this includes addressing the debt issue. Right. And there are growing number of institutions that are thinking of creative ways to help students address that. You're You're
[00:24:10.59] - Jeff Sherrod
You're You're so you're seeing this more and more. Right?
[00:24:12.29] - Dave Medders
We're So here's Kyber College in Grand Rapids that after several years of working through the process is now an officially designated work institution to where every student vocation. And the students get a choice of where they wanna work in the community as well as on campus. That's an old model, but there was a time where it went through to where you just go off to college and you borrow a ton of money and you eventually pay it off, and the government became involved in that big time.
[00:24:46.59] - Jeff Sherrod
Mhmm.
[00:24:47.00] - Dave Medders
And now it's forcing institutions to say, so how much are graduates gonna make, which is in a sense antithetical to the kind of graduates we wanna produce. Right. It's not how much you make. It's how much you can give in your lifetime. So helping them to graduate debt free is an entirely different paradigm.
[00:25:02.59] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:25:03.20] - Dave Medders
And I think sets them up, for a whole different trajectory.
[00:25:08.90] - Jeff Sherrod
Let let me ask you about, like, do you think that when we're talking about innovation and lean and debt, are we kind of talking about a certain kind of school, a size of school, or do you think that I mean, how how replicable is this at a school that has more than ten thousand Well, Well,
[00:25:24.59] - Dave Medders
Well, Well, we don't have any institutions in Biblical Higher Education above ten thousand one. Southeastern is that. Right. And listening to their president a couple of years ago, his strategic plan was to take the institution back to the local church. And so they opened. They went to some of their larger churches in the Assemblies of God.
[00:25:41.79] - Laurie Kagay
In Nashville.
[00:25:42.59] - Dave Medders
Yep. And started offering classes in partnership with a local church. Well, in a sense, that's not new.
[00:25:50.20] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. Mhmm. You You
[00:25:51.20] - Dave Medders
You You know, the academy here's Moody, one of our old historic institutions that came out of the Moody church under Dio's leadership. The same thing is happening with Highlands. Well, this is an institution that's going back. So I I don't know where that range is. Yeah. I think they still have a a vibrant, serious on campus operation, and I think that'll continue to be the case. Yeah. I I could be wrong on that, but it seems to me that there's a sociological dynamic of students leaving home and going to a campus and having that kind of experience where there's two years, four years, whatever the case may be, but not all. Some are gonna be ready to get married. Some wanna go into a vocation. Here is Manna University.
[00:26:41.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Mhmm. Mhmm.
[00:26:42.29] - Dave Medders
This is in Fayetteville, North Carolina. Yeah. And a part of their vision, they're close to the military base there, and a part of their vision is to have classes at every US military base in the United States. Well, that's lean. Oh, yeah. Innovative, responsive to the culture. Yep. It'll be interesting to see how the Lord helps them pull that off under Carlo's leadership.
[00:27:07.09] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. It will be. Carlo's a great guy. Yeah. We've had him on the Chevy before.
[00:27:11.00] - Dave Medders
I I love talking to him. To see that. I wanna go to one other thing, though, just so I'm not talking about organizational behavior or characteristics. I think at the core, the foundation of it, though, for biblical higher education is the spiritual leadership of the institution, of them hearing the voice of God, being empowered by the spirit, and being led by the spirit. And a part of the the cluster around that, you know, it goes two or three different directions. One is that there's regular testimony to the real transformation in the lives of students.
[00:27:46.29] - Jeff Sherrod
Mhmm. Mhmm. If
[00:27:47.29] - Dave Medders
you wanted to say, so what is the real value proposition of an institution of biblical higher education? I would answer that in the form of a question. Are your students being transformed by the grace of God? Right. To where they leave prepared to follow God with all of their heart and to be obedient to him, living on mission with Christ. That's in sync with what Christ is up to in the world. That doesn't happen by accident. No. And it can slip away from that spiritual dynamism into where leadership and I don't know if I say intentionally, maybe it does, but to where it can slip into, we're here to run an organization. We're here to run an institution. Well, yes and no. Yeah. You were here, and it and it's, synergizes with a boot camp kind of experience. Christ called disciples. Call come and follow me. We're the echo of that voice to an emerging generation. Will you come and follow Christ? And so to see that in the lives of the students and how does that work is because the leaders of the institution, in the midst of all the other stuff of raising money and recruiting and marketing and on all the activities is that the core of life transformation is happening.
[00:29:03.40] - Jeff Sherrod
Mhmm.
[00:29:04.59] - Dave Medders
If I interview students and all this goes way back of our first accreditation visit when I became a president. And the accreditation team, you're familiar with these kind of experiences. They come and they interview people and they interview students. And I was most pleased with this single statement by one of the guys who was president of another institution of Bill of Higher Education. He says, I don't think on I've been on another campus where I sense as many students who are here because they are called of god. Well, as long as god's voice is going out to the ends of the earth, I believe he's calling people to follow him.
[00:29:44.00] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:29:45.40] - Dave Medders
And that following him includes the leaders of the institution, right, to where we lean into that. That, to me, is the cutting edge of biblical higher education.
[00:29:54.70] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. Because I think and I think that's the thing too. Like, we're not gonna be the kind of innovative schools that we need to be just by reading whatever book came out
[00:30:03.40] - Dave Medders
Absolutely.
[00:30:04.09] - Jeff Sherrod
Last or going to the best business conference or taking a master class on this. Like Which
[00:30:08.90] - Dave Medders
is the assumption of that is that the most creative ideas come from organizational gurus. Right.
[00:30:15.29] - Laurie Kagay
Right.
[00:30:15.59] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:30:16.40] - Dave Medders
The great creative ideas, though, is comes from the one who can make things new.
[00:30:21.09] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. The creator. Yes.
[00:30:22.70] - Dave Medders
And can do them in an instant. Yeah. That's right. And we will stand amazed.
[00:30:27.70] - Jeff Sherrod
The one who does strategic planning better than anybody. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's right. And and you're right. If we're not connected to that, if we don't develop that heart of flash as opposed to heart of stone, then we start to miss it
[00:30:38.90] - Dave Medders
Exactly.
[00:30:39.40] - Jeff Sherrod
Every time.
[00:30:39.70] - Dave Medders
Yeah. And I'd say from the wineskins perspective on that, the renewal of that, which is a constant thing. Right? Mhmm. That's an ongoing challenge to institutional leaders. Like, what is my responsibility? When you look at your job description, what is my responsibility? It's it's to make sure my ears are hearing the voice of the spirit of God regularly.
[00:31:06.29] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:31:06.79] - Dave Medders
That I'm led by the spirit. Yeah. Not just that I'm working hard in behalf of an organization that I believe in or I love the leader or I believe in the mission or whatever. But I sense the call of God upon my life to do this. I think the potential of that is God size.
[00:31:24.90] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. We while I was having Laurie and I were both talking to our president, Gregg, before he left to go to Africa with about forty of our students, this summer, he traveled with them. And, you know, we were talking about how long do you keep doing this. And, you know, he has a lot that he's doing. He's a busy guy. And, you know, his his thing was like, this is yeah. There's a lot to do, but this is it. Raising the next generation where I'm gonna spend I'm gonna sleep in tents sometimes and worship with them every single day for five weeks. Like, when I'm going, like, that's that's it. Like, this is the thing that we're doing. You connect. And I think, you know so I think that when it's modeled at the highest, that helps the whole culture be like, this is what we're doing. You know? Yeah. It's gonna cause sacrifice. It can be away from your family for a little bit. It's gonna be uncomfortable. You might do it longer than what you should have been doing. You know, it's not a young man's game, doing some of this stuff, but or I should say, maybe sometimes it feels like it is, but, you know, that I think it's just like that insistence to say
[00:32:27.79] - Laurie Kagay
This is the work.
[00:32:28.79] - Jeff Sherrod
This is the work.
[00:32:29.70] - Laurie Kagay
The most important.
[00:32:30.70] - Jeff Sherrod
The work is people work. Yeah.
[00:32:32.09] - Dave Medders
Yeah. Philip, our president, has the same this is what we do. Yeah. I heard this story just recently. So in New Brunswick, this was a couple. She was served on the board and was married to, really, it was kind of a he was one of three sons of an entrepreneurial businessman, whatever, and they became billionaires. And he passed away this summer at ninety three years of age. And my understanding is that three days before he passed away, she did a children's thing and for years and would have forty or so kids where she would teach them bible storage and all this stuff. And when she passed away a year or so ago, he continued engaging, including providing meals for kids in the city where they lived. And two days before he passed away at ninety three, he was with the kids and dancing on the floor with them. And and you you shift gears. Yeah. But it's not an age specific kind of thing. It's just it's who you are.
[00:33:34.59] - Jeff Sherrod
That's right. Yeah.
[00:33:37.00] - Dave Medders
And there's a difference between raising kids and raising grandkids. And and you just shift gears. That's a different kind of dynamic. But I can see Greg, he's a young guy.
[00:33:47.90] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:33:48.70] - Dave Medders
He got a lot of lord willing, he's got a lot of years ahead of him, and he does it in a different way, but because God so loved the world.
[00:33:58.20] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:33:58.79] - Dave Medders
As he opens doors and provides opportunities, so do we.
[00:34:01.79] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. Mhmm.
[00:34:02.79] - Laurie Kagay
Yeah. And it's funny. Phillips says this is what we do. Gregg says this is who we are. You know, that's that's kind of our refrain. Yep. They go together. Right? Like, this is who we are, and because of that, this is what we do.
[00:34:12.40] - Dave Medders
Exactly.
[00:34:12.90] - Laurie Kagay
This is and I think that's a refrain for all of us. Yeah. Yep. This is the drill. You know, this is this is how we minister. This is how we serve.
[00:34:20.09] - Dave Medders
Yeah. And behind that, which we don't hang on the front of it, but both of those are true because of who Christ is
[00:34:26.19] - Laurie Kagay
That's right.
[00:34:26.59] - Dave Medders
And what he did. And if we say we're Christ followers, it begs the question if if we're not that and if we don't do that, it just it's part of that.
[00:34:40.19] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Well, I appreciate this conversation. Like, I I I was interested in talking about this because I think, again, when I hear you talk, you're like one of the more positive people, talking about the state of Christian higher education, which is a completely different narrative than what I think we often get. And I think that's what I want, like, listeners to hear is, like, yeah. Where there might be stuff in the news, but there is really amazing things, happening in Christian higher education. So
[00:35:04.69] - Dave Medders
So here's the here's the snippet Yeah.
[00:35:06.59] - Jeff Sherrod
Tell me. From From
[00:35:07.00] - Dave Medders
From From the gospels that I would leave with is that here's the boat, including some fishermen, disciples in the boat after incredible day of ministry. Right? And they're crossing the sea and a storm comes up. And it doesn't take a genius to say, well, higher education, biblical higher education. There's some serious waves going on. Christ is asleep. Right. They're afraid for their life, which is not a bad statement of what some leaders in our education, maybe even biblical our education. Christ rebukes the way, calms the storm, and then looks at them and says, I'm paraphrasing here, obviously. Guys, what's your problem? Right. Yeah. Where's your faith? And so I pray that God would increase the faith of leaders in biblical education Yeah. To be able to know Christ for who he is and for our life, our walk with him to reflect that with confidence that he is doing a new thing in this generation, and we have the privilege of being a part of that. And the huge thing to me is it is global. It's easier to get to Africa or Asia than it's ever been. And so to be involved in his mission and we know this. He says that the gospel will be preached to the whole earth. Yeah. That could happen in your lifetime.
[00:36:20.69] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:36:21.40] - Dave Medders
And you could be a part of that. My word. Here we go. And anytime that we're trembling with fear, I think Christ would stand up if if we're we're realistic, and he would say so I'm quoting now from a hand towel that I saw on a Cracker Barrel that said, suck it up, buttercup. Get with a program. Chop chop.
[00:36:46.50] - Laurie Kagay
That's right.
[00:36:47.90] - Dave Medders
Yeah. Christ is still Lord.
[00:36:49.90] - Jeff Sherrod
Ask Amen. Suck it up buttercup. We're gonna end with suck it up buttercup. It's awesome. I appreciate it, Dave. Thanks for thanks for being with us today.
[00:36:56.90] - Dave Medders
My pleasure, guys.
[00:36:57.90] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. Thanks for thanks for joining us today on College Conversations. We, appreciate it always when you guys, like and subscribe. Share the show with others who you think would enjoy it. Till then, see you guys next time.