Summary: In this episode of College Conversations, Jeff Sherrod, Gregg Garner, and Laurie Kagay discuss the pervasive issue of burnout, exploring its causes and effects on individuals in various life stages, particularly within the context of Christian ministry. They discuss practical strategies for recognizing and addressing burnout, emphasizing the importance of waiting on the Lord and sharing burdens with others. The conversation highlights the need for self-awareness and the understanding that seeking help is essential for maintaining mental and emotional health.

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024

[00:00:06.51] - Jeff Sherrod

Hey, everyone, and welcome back to College Conversations. My name is Jeff Sherrod  and I am joined in this episode by Gregg Garner and Laurie  Kagay. And today we're talking about the concept of burnout. Burnout is a theme that has exploded in common vernacular and usage throughout our society. Everybody seems to be experiencing signs of burnout. In this episode we're talking about what are some of the common causes of burnout, why people go through this, and then also getting into how does the Bible itself teach us to respond to burnout? What can we do in light of it? If you've ever gone through burnout or have someone that you know has experienced burnout, it can be something that can be challenging to experience. So I hope that you find this episode very helpful and practical in your own response and even in your own ministerial responses to other people who might have experienced that. Thanks as always for joining us. Hope you guys enjoy the show. Hey, welcome back to this week's College Conversation. For this episode, we're talking about the concept of burnout. Maybe not the most encouraging of all the topics that we could be talking about, but I do think that it's timely. This is something I think that continues to come up in conversation. We were even talking about before the podcast about concept of mental health day and just the focus on mental health in general. So for this we're trying to think through Christian ministry, Christian life. Burnout seems to be a common topic that does come up, whether it's the college student that's trying to manage work and school and giving themselves to those in need, or maybe the middle aged person who is just getting too tired to continue in ministry, or maybe the older person that's been around for a long time and doesn't know next place to go. I wanted to discuss the topic of burnout.

[00:02:00.93] - Gregg Garner

or they know and they're just waiting to get there.

[00:02:02.57] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe that's the other way of saying that. So, yeah, talk, talk about the topic of burnout. What can prevent it? What are some of the biblical ways that we can address people who are expressing concept of burnout? We were reading a little bit about this. There was this guy that Herbert Frutenberger, I think I'm saying his name right, he was the one that first talked, coined this term burnout in the 70s. He was doing a clinical study at a clinic that worked with. It was a free clinic that worked with drug addicts. And so there was. They had volunteers that would come in there and do this and he just started to notice how quick the turnover rate was of this kind of work because it was incredibly demanding. And he and some other researchers got together and kind of found some similar kind of skills, whether exhaustion, you know, like emotional detachment, some of those things that he started to characterize as burnout. And it's kind of kept in the language since then. I know, Laurie, you've looked into some other.

[00:03:00.71] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah. Ways of even characterizing Friedenberger. He did, he noted burnout as the high cost of high achievement. So I think, I think it's the.

[00:03:10.18] - Gregg Garner

High cost of high achievement.

[00:03:11.87] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah, that's, that's a quote from him. But yes, I think like it can affect people mentally, physically, even. They just lack motivation. They start becoming more cynical. Even if they are performing well, they doubt themselves or they doubt their contribution. I think I'm interested because we are a Bible school. We have students who are working to pay for school at the same time rather than push debt into their future. But they are also engaged in regular service to those in need. So. And some of those are not easy situations that students are involved in every day. So I think some of my question is like, how do we help them with combat it? How do you help even adults? Maybe if it's on our staff. It is like often related to caregiving professions or ministerial things.

[00:04:00.81] - Jeff Sherrod

And that was the institutions that he mostly studied. He was like people that are clergy, people that do social type work. That was where he mostly the high emotional attachments to people's work.

[00:04:10.34] - Laurie Kagay

And I think I'm interested because, Greg, you're a very high achieving person who has, you know, dealt with, to me, more stress than any human being I've met. But you're also the one usually encouraging us, you know, strengthening us, even as a staff or to our students. And so I just, I think some of my questions are like, you know, while they're in the pressure cookie Bible school, can you kind of front load some of the things, like here's the things that can prevent that from you, or is it, is it just the daily discipline, you know, no magic bullet, but the daily discipline of prayer, scripture, those things. I know that's part of it, but I just wanted to have the conversation and hear from you even specifically because you've, you've had a high achievement life in giving a lot, mentally, emotionally, spiritually to a lot of people. So I think I'm just interested to hear like, how have you combated that? Or what are some things that we can. Another, another question would also be like, because I think the general wisdom out there is Just protect yourself, create better boundaries, do more self care. And sometimes those don't fit well in the context of faith where you feel like the scriptures themselves are like, you know, treat everyone else higher than you, you know, an attitude of service is how we are supposed to be characterized. So that's, that's some of the starting thoughts. I probably had a lot of questions.

[00:05:36.69] - Jeff Sherrod

In there, but yeah, maybe, maybe we will start with that. Greg, maybe you can just what do you, the personal question, what do you do to do? Maybe I'll just start with this. Have you, do you feel like you've ever experienced like burnout?

[00:05:50.31] - Gregg Garner

Yeah.

[00:05:50.83] - Jeff Sherrod

And if you have, do you? Yeah, I'm also interested in this.

[00:05:54.45] - Gregg Garner

Well, I think at this point, I've been serving in full time ministry since my teens, so I have about three decades in different, you know, 20s, 30s, and 40s where life circumstances change significantly. And so I would first say that at every stage of life there's a different rubric of consideration that needs applied for what it means to burn out and how it is you attend to burnout. A practical example for that would be now at my age, one of the ways that I can reenergize it could be as simple as making sure I got time with my little girls to just sit down and hear about their day and laugh with them a little bit, read them a story, that does enough for me. But when I was in my 20s, I didn't have that. So my ability to recharge was going to be connected to a different activity just based on life circumstances. So every window of time in a person's life gives them a variety of opportunities to figure out the dance that's related to carrying the kind of stress a person does who's in ministry. And especially if you're going to be serving the Lord in a way that is biblical, not only do you have the normal stressors that come with human living, but according to Jesus, these things even come with persecution.

[00:07:26.18] - Laurie Kagay

Right.

[00:07:26.70] - Gregg Garner

Where now you have the additional stressors of people slandering you, mocking you, reviling you, saying things against you falsely and how that can taint how it is other people see you, think about you, feel about you. So that the very thing you did when you were younger, prior to those kinds of things, people could optimistically look at that and see something hopeful, positive, encouraging. When you're older now you could do the exact same thing. And now because of the taint that's been applied due to the persecution, a person can now question. So, so your same effort doesn't get the same result, which now makes the mountain feel higher to climb, which I think contributes to how a person senses burnout. All that to say I am no expert on how to prevent burnout. I think when I was younger and I would recite or sing Isaiah 40 and I would like, highlight. Even youth grow tired and weary. Young men stumble and fall. But those who wait on the Lord, he renews their strength. They rise up on wind like eagles. When I think about that text when I was younger, the thought of running out of just energy seemed not applicable. Like, I just. It felt. I remember we. We have a book in our curriculum, the Shantung Compound. That's a study on a group of people who had to form community together in a Chinese prison camp.

[00:09:05.75] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:09:06.36] - Gregg Garner

And one of the things they noticed with respect to leadership and natural ascendancy is that leaders have this boundless energy.

[00:09:15.51] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:09:16.00] - Gregg Garner

And I remember reading that and going, God, that's. That's definitely a gift that I have. And so I think definitely in my 20s, it was like, you, you. I. I just had. I just could keep going. So thinking about that verse, it was. It just wasn't all together applicable. I couldn't appreciate it the way that I do now, because now I. I could fall victim to the mentality that says if I was younger and I had more energy that could do these things. But the scripture tells me even young men, even youth grow tired and weary, and young men, some of them fall. So youthful energy is not what a person needs so that they could fulfill the. The high expectations. I mean, the end of that analogy is soaring on wind like eagles. Yeah, like, that's a high expectation analogy. So in order to fulfill a high expectation analogy, it does not necessitate youthful energy. That's one key that I learned in this from that scripture, even in my 20s. And I think that's. That's why it was it. It even helped me all the more to focus because I had to figure out, okay, how do I access the Lord? How do I wait on the Lord? I think waiting on the Lord is a key thing too, because a lot of people get burnout, especially in the type of work that we do, because the stuff we do isn't immediately gratifying. For example, last few days I've been working on editing a video. I've been in Chris's world a little bit, just editing. Now I'm editing in a terrible program that I hate using. I can't wait to put it into Final Cut. But I'm just in video world. But I Have such a sense of accomplishment. Every time I finish a scene, I'm.

[00:10:50.84] - Laurie Kagay

Like, oh God, I finished.

[00:10:52.45] - Gregg Garner

What is happening right now? So now I'm like, in act two, scene 12, first act had 18 scenes. I'm 30 scenes in, I've done 30 things. Yes. Now that is not my normal. My normal is now working with people and saying, yeah, you know, world changer, history maker, you're going to be able to do this and make this happen. And we're talking the trajectory from that moment of speaking that hope into them and them actually living that out could be 20 years. Yeah, yeah, right. And so now it's a matter of whether or not this person is even going to continue the course of doing all the things that get you to that place.

[00:11:29.82] - Laurie Kagay

Right.

[00:11:30.61] - Gregg Garner

So then there's a lot of hope and there's a lot of waiting. And the waiting really is on the Lord. Because you can't do anything to control a person. Like, you can inspire, motivate, but they may not take to it. God really has to work in a person's life. So I learned that waiting on the Lord is part of the action that allows you to be a high achieving person. Because you recognize that I can't apply all of the necessary energy for this person to succeed. Whether it is to make healthy lifestyle changes or to develop skills, whatever it is, I cannot possibly give enough energy over to them to see that through. But God can. And I can wait on him to let his work be done in that person's life and I can learn the patience related to that. And that's been such a gift to me in being able to work on these levels. Because where a person themselves can feel like I'm a failure. I tried this for a whole semester and I'm not getting anywhere. I could look them in the eyes very sincerely and just be like, it's okay, do it again, you'll get it more. Because I know I'm waiting on the Lord to work with them. And three years from there, I just know they're going to be like, I remember a couple years ago it was so hard for me to do this, and now I'm doing this, and now I'm sharing this with other people. Ten years from now, they're going to be telling me, I'm an expert now in this field. And there is really. I look at what other people do and I'm like, how are you doing that? And I think about people who go to school to be professionalists. I didn't go to school to do it. I just got in there, applied the word of God and I'm hearing all the things I told them.

[00:13:03.75] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah.

[00:13:04.40] - Gregg Garner

10 years ago and they're living out. And I've been in ministry long enough where 25 years later, I'm seeing the fruit of waiting on the Lord because it's really God and only God that is capable of salvation, healing, restoration, redemption, the kind of maturation that human beings need. So as a servant of God, you wait, Wait a lot.

[00:13:24.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:13:25.09] - Gregg Garner

And I think when you learn to wait, your strength is renewed because you realize there's nothing else you can do except give it to God and wait on the Lord. And maybe. Maybe that advice sounds overly simplistic.

[00:13:35.90] - Jeff Sherrod

No, I think it's helpful.

[00:13:37.02] - Laurie Kagay

And I was going to ask too, like, do you think then that burnout happens when people are applying more of a superhero complex? Yeah, because it's caregiving profession. So you're putting yourself, you know, in the line of fire to try to solve this thing.

[00:13:50.88] - Gregg Garner

You are not God. You are a limited, finite human being who gets sick, who gets exhausted, who when tired, will say things you don't mean. Like, and there are, like, sometimes what feels like irreversible repercussions to allowing yourself to get to that place. And again, this is not to say I haven't allowed myself to get that place, but I do believe that when a person resigns over to the fact that God needs to be God, like, yeah, I didn't say that. Right. That we have to let God be himself.

[00:14:26.44] - Laurie Kagay

Right.

[00:14:27.09] - Gregg Garner

And that our job as teachers, mentors, leaders is to direct people towards God as the source of that that alleviates us. My wife used to laugh at me. She still laughs at me because I'll say things like I barely care.

[00:14:39.86] - Laurie Kagay

Right.

[00:14:40.37] - Gregg Garner

And it sounds funny because to her, she just laughs out loud every time. Because she knows me, she knows I care and I can't stop caring. But if I barely care, she knows I'm doing the thing I need to do. That's effectively saying I'm going to limit what energy I put into this and I'm giving it to you.

[00:14:57.12] - Jeff Sherrod

Making a choice.

[00:14:57.87] - Gregg Garner

I'm making a choice, a conscious choice. I barely care about that right now because otherwise I would care so much and I would put so much energy into it on top of all the other things that have to be done. And I'm unrealistically now putting even God in a position that he shouldn't have to be in to sustain me, independent of the very things he put into us as human beings. As warning Signs that you're getting unhealthy. Yeah, right. If you're exhausted, if you're, you're walking around in pain, if you're foggy minded, all of those things are cautionary yellow, maybe even red lights blaring at you saying, get some rest, get some health.

[00:15:39.86] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:15:40.38] - Gregg Garner

So instead of letting myself get there, which I've been there before, instead of letting myself get there, I have to wait on the Lord to get that renewal of strength. And so, yeah, I think burnout often happens when a person's complex, considering what capacity they have to render in service is too high and they are just overclocking themselves. And it's their choice. And you can't blame that on God. When a person blames burnout on God or even their job, that is an immature statement because every person has a choice. And if they don't have a choice now, you need, you need to reevaluate the system that you're a part of. But every person has a choice. Every person can say yes. Every person can say no. Jesus said, let your yes be yes and your no be no. Telling us that we have the option of saying both. Yeah, but whatever it is that we say, we have to be conscious of the commitment we're making when we say yes or when we say no. And I think a mature person learns their limits. Like when I talk to young people and they ask me, how do I know I'm maturing and growing? One of the criteria I give them for consideration is your ability to measure your limits. And often young people will be like, but I don't know my limit on that. And I said, that's because you're growing up. But one day you will learn. You will learn your limit. You'll find out, ooh, I overclock that. And you're gonna have to step it back a little bit so that you don't breach that threshold that created the pain or the struggle. I think another scripture that comes to mind is how Jesus 2 scriptures, he'll limit his activity based upon criteria that creates venue for his activity. So in the Book of Mark, it'll say that there was a community of people where he didn't heal anybody. And it says they didn't meet the prerequisite criteria. They didn't believe. So the lack of believe had him not even assert an effort. I think for some people, they're like, it doesn't matter if they don't believe. Let's try. Yeah, but, but I mean, that's a fact. I've Gone. I've been in venues where, like, I could tell half the congregation, I'm a guest speaker at a church. Half of the congregation really wants to go somewhere. They really want to learn something. And to me, that half is enough. I'm going to push and I'm going to fight the other nominally attending, lackadaisical group of people and try and light a fire up underneath them. But I'm going to have to exert a lot of energy to do that. But I've also been in the churches where 95% of people are in that nominal place. And now instead of exerting all this energy, I'm going to take seven minutes and I'm going to make one solid point, and I'm going to make everyone happy in here because they're so happy. I ended in seven minutes.

[00:18:19.33] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:18:19.78] - Gregg Garner

Like, there was not 10.

[00:18:21.59] - Jeff Sherrod

Righteous.

[00:18:22.15] - Gregg Garner

Right. And I'm comfortable with that. And if the church is like, we're so mad at you. We wanted you to bring the fire, I'd be like, wrong venue, dude. Give me another venue to bring fire. You're asking me to fight a battle with no weapons or with not enough weapons or something like that. I don't know. It was a terrible battle analogy. My point is there are ways in which we expend energy that we don't need to, especially when we're learning who we are and what we can do and learning how to navigate the social organizational pressures that are around us. And as we mature, we learn how to communicate what we can or can't do. Like, for example, it unfortunately happens. Maybe it's not unfortunate. It just happens to me where sometimes, like, a preacher will get sick or an obligation will happen, and I'll get a call 1am, 9am before church starts saying, hey, I can't preach. Can you preach for me? And yeah, I can. I can do that. I have that. God's blessed me to be able to. To do something like that. It may not be the world's greatest sermon, but it definitely fills the gap. On the other hand, there are other people who, if you want to ask them to preach, you got to give them three weeks to a month or they're going to say no. Which person is better? No, it's not about better. They're the same. They're both people who want to be used by God. They just learn themselves.

[00:19:43.69] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:19:44.21] - Gregg Garner

So a person may feel bad going, I feel bad doing this to you, Greg. It's been like, I'm probably the best person to not feel bad about doing that you actually might catch me in, in one of my bursts of energy. That's like, yeah, I actually am really pumped to do this tomorrow morning. Where, because they know themselves, they're. They're thinking, this would be stressful to me, they now superimpose that stress onto me, and I don't feel it, and they don't need to feel that for me. But at the same time, going the other way, people who need that sermon prep three weeks in advance, they need to know the topic. They need to know things. And if you don't get that to them, they're going to not feel what I feel, which is no stress. They're going to feel more stressed. So we. When we increase our ability to articulate what we need, we're demonstrating both maturity and preventing burnout.

[00:20:26.79] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:20:27.46] - Laurie Kagay

And I've seen you do that where even you've asked someone a question, would you play this role in this thing? And they will say, no, I can't. And your response would be like, I'm so proud of you, like, for telling me no. You know, even. Even as a boss asking you to do this thing, I'm trusting you to say whether or not you can do it. And I've seen you, you know, even when people say no and it's the worst is that. The worst is you say yes.

[00:20:50.05] - Jeff Sherrod

And then somehow, as an employer, you had some magic knowledge of every single thing that they were supposed to do. And then they're like, but he.

[00:20:57.98] - Laurie Kagay

But that's the mark of a mature person.

[00:20:59.94] - Gregg Garner

Right. It was a test.

[00:21:01.33] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:21:01.96] - Gregg Garner

I wanted to please him. Like, all kind of things that. That are unnecessary.

[00:21:07.31] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. And all leads to burnout. Do you think, when we're thinking about. Because, you know, burnout typically is talked about as, like, a career kind of experience.

[00:21:17.59] - Gregg Garner

Oh, I think it's expansive.

[00:21:19.21] - Jeff Sherrod

I think so, too. But it's become more expansive. Right.

[00:21:21.83] - Gregg Garner

Like, I mean, maybe from. What was his name? Freedom Riker?

[00:21:25.89] - Jeff Sherrod

Freedom Rider. Yeah.

[00:21:27.79] - Laurie Kagay

Friedenberger.

[00:21:29.21] - Gregg Garner

Freedom Burger. That's what it was. Friedenberger. You know, I guess it's. It's changed from when he first wrote about it. I haven't studied his work, obviously, and so I'm not sure.

[00:21:37.29] - Jeff Sherrod

But even in a college setting, you've heard people talk about burn, I think that feels newer to me. Like where college students are talking about burnout.

[00:21:45.07] - Gregg Garner

I feel like the term is adaptable to anything you want to talk about. Right. I'm burnt out at my job. I'm burnt out with my friends. I'm burnt out at. Sometimes people even Find environmental burnout a compelling thing I hear in college students all the time. I needed a change of scenery.

[00:21:57.75] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Burned out by this.

[00:21:59.28] - Gregg Garner

So I think the term has become a little more expansive.

[00:22:02.96] - Jeff Sherrod

Do you think that when you hear sometimes the way it's used maybe of college students that you're like, that's not burnout, that's just weakness, you know, like, when do. When do we start?

[00:22:13.03] - Laurie Kagay

Or aren't they just tired or. Yeah, sometimes I think they don't know.

[00:22:16.34] - Jeff Sherrod

You'Re just tired, you know, Because I think you're saying part of the way that we learn ourselves is. You were saying this earlier. Yeah.

[00:22:23.81] - Gregg Garner

You gotta find your limits.

[00:22:24.60] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. But you gotta work to do that. Right. Like, you know, if you're running cross country, I always, like, my kids run cross country. I'm like, this is a cool thing to do. It's like, there's not many things you can do in life where you're like, you push yourself as hard as you possibly can. You can, like, I love it, you know, and so. Yeah, but that I think is what we want sometimes young people to do. Right? Like push. But if they get this language of burnout maybe too quickly, I think, I guess that's some of my concern. Like. Yeah.

[00:22:50.59] - Gregg Garner

And then they don't make them overly cautious.

[00:22:52.77] - Jeff Sherrod

Right. I don't want to burn out.

[00:22:54.39] - Gregg Garner

Risk averse in like an unhealthy way.

[00:22:56.30] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, yeah.

[00:22:57.15] - Gregg Garner

I think that's. That's happening with a lot of young people and they're living their lives now through virtual representations of what they could be doing.

[00:23:07.85] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:23:08.24] - Gregg Garner

Like, I'm sure you guys have seen kids watch other kids play video games.

[00:23:12.40] - Laurie Kagay

Yes.

[00:23:13.01] - Gregg Garner

Like, they themselves aren't playing, they're watching someone else play it. And they're watching them. Maybe not even do any better than what they would be doing, learning things, but like, for some reason they find it safer to be watching it rather than doing it themselves. And then I think there are a lot of options related to that within the culture. But to your question, like, when is it burnout versus just boredom or a.

[00:23:42.42] - Jeff Sherrod

Person boredom or weakness or.

[00:23:44.60] - Gregg Garner

Yeah, weakness. I think one has to be discerning about that. I think the concept of burnout is that there's an external force that has breached your firewall and now it's intruding on your personal health.

[00:24:02.27] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:24:02.52] - Gregg Garner

That's the analogy of burnout.

[00:24:04.52] - Jeff Sherrod

You're on fire.

[00:24:05.79] - Gregg Garner

You're about to. Your wick is going out. You have no more fuel left. Right. So we go to Jesus's analogy that you have These young ladies who've got their lamps and then you've got those who are fueled up versus those who aren't, those who aren't burnout. And now they're not able to participate in what's happening next. But those who are wise are those who are conscious of their fuel. And I think again, a mature person starts becoming conscious of their fuel. And that's a hard thing for some of us, especially if you follow into those studies. Like, who's a morning person, Who's a night owl? When does creativity happen? Like, I would love to pretend I was a morning person. I really like the idea, like when I hear about people getting up at 4am and having their cup of coffee by themselves. A quiet. Like, I love that idea. But for whatever reason, outside of times that I have to facilitate moments like that, my brain kicks in around 10pm till about 3am I dream of that.

[00:25:09.42] - Jeff Sherrod

People I sometimes like, hey, can you think about this at 10:00pm I'm like, I'll try.

[00:25:14.33] - Gregg Garner

I mean, 10 to 3 I could, I could like write a musical. Like, it's like my brain was very active at that time. Yeah, I have. But it's like, not everybody's the same, is my point. And we have to learn to love one another for who it is that God's made us and figure out how to work with each other. So even knowing yourself well enough to recognize that there are certain times of the day where you can't work as well, even prevents burnout. Because if you're, if you're operating during a time of energy, you're, you're able to focus and get things done. If, if it's like painful to initially engage, like there's some of these guys there who are like, yeah, let's have a meeting at 6:00am like, yeah, I can do it. I'll need an hour to warm up or something. So that meeting. But they're like chipper and, and ready to go. And I think that's great. Way to go, guys. But if we're going to make like a really like big decision type meeting outside of emergency circumstances, I'm saying, no, I'm not available at that time because that's, that's, it's going to be a regrettable thing for me later. That's. I'm at a limitation where I think there are other people. When I'm saying, hey, let's, let's get together at 10:30 and knock this out. Between 10:30 and midnight they should tell me. So I can't do that. So a person's knowledge of themselves comes as a result of the trial and error that comes from experimental pushing, especially in your 20s, where you're learning how, who you are and what you're about. But again, if people are averse to all of that and they're not trying, then they never figure out who they are. And now they act like they are asserting who they are, but really they're just a product of the boundaries their cultures put on. It's kind of sad. They never get to become an authentic person.

[00:27:05.98] - Jeff Sherrod

Right. Yeah. I was talking to a student recently who did an all nighter. It was last year and they were saying like, you know, as part of the college experience, do a nighter. But then it wrecked them for like three days. And then they turned in stuff late after the fact.

[00:27:20.11] - Gregg Garner

Yeah.

[00:27:20.71] - Jeff Sherrod

Missed all kinds of stuff. They're like, okay, that is not, this is not.

[00:27:23.58] - Gregg Garner

That didn't work for you.

[00:27:24.46] - Jeff Sherrod

Not going to do that one again. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, now you know, that's, that's the way it works out. What kind of advice would you give to. I know that we're talking about college students, people going into college, but for people that like, are kind of experiencing burnout, I wanted to kind of maybe get back to this waiting idea. What are you doing when you're waiting? Like, we're waiting on the Lord.

[00:27:47.59] - Gregg Garner

So I'm acknowledging my limitations and then resigning myself over to no more expenditure of energy towards that task or that thing. And I'm just going to wait on the Lord to bring it back.

[00:28:02.15] - Jeff Sherrod

Okay.

[00:28:02.93] - Gregg Garner

So let's say like, for example, we need, we need to do some roof repairs on a building for the K through 12 school, including some internal renovations. It's going to cost like 100 grand. It's, it's part of my responsibility to figure out where that money is going to come from. So I know I can do all the things that I know how to do. I can meet with the controller, I can examine cash reserves, I can talk to the bank. There's a lot of things I can do, but after that I'm done. Now I can be the kind of person that just keeps worrying about it and keeps expending energy. Or I can assert my faith and say, God, here's the need. We're seeking your kingdom and your righteousness. We need help.

[00:28:49.57] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah.

[00:28:50.34] - Gregg Garner

Turning this one over to you now. Yeah, I'm going to wait on you. And I legitimately do that. And so I just stop. So like, when other people are like, yeah, that's on my mind for days. I don't. I don't really do that anymore. Well, I try not to.

[00:29:03.85] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:29:04.20] - Gregg Garner

Try not. Sometimes things nag at you, but I try not to because now it's time to wait on the Lord. So a person who's experiencing burnout, a practical thing to do, I think, is to write out all the stuff that you do, maybe put it into three categories. I have people do this often. The stuff that energizes you, the stuff that de energizes you in the very right column, and then in the middle, that's stuff that you're neutral about. And then start figuring out ways to stop doing the stuff that de energizes you. Because often the stuff that doesn't energize you are things that other people are energized by doing. And so it actually integrates you and connects you with more people and allows you to figure out how to. How to be a part of the team that you're probably already a part of, rather than living on an island thinking you have to do all these things. So bring it up and discuss your. Hey, guys, thanks for this opportunity to share in our meeting right now. There's these five things I do every week that I literally resent my life for when they happen. And it's draining me and it's making me a miserable person. I gotta stop doing them. Here's what they are. Can anybody help me? Now? If you have a boss who goes, you have to figure it out. That's your job. Probably consider getting a new job, but probably you don't have a boss like that. And you have a boss who's like, all right, yeah, let's figure this out. We don't want you. We want you concentrating on things. And there. And then you find another person who goes, well, here are the things that I don't like doing. And I saw that that's on your list of stuff you love doing. Can you take these? I'll take those.

[00:30:27.49] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:30:27.95] - Gregg Garner

And. And. And I think that's a helpful practical exercise because just like that's helpful. Like, like imagine you're climbing up a mountain and you've got a 150 pound backpack. Like, the first quarter mile you're okay. The next quarter mile you're going, this is heavy.

[00:30:44.45] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah.

[00:30:44.95] - Gregg Garner

Third quarter mile, you're going, I can't believe I have to do this for two miles. After the first mile, you're starting to think, should we stop? Should we camp? And if all of a sudden the tour guide goes, hey, listen, Everybody, we are halfway there, but this point we're going to come back to. So right now I think we're going to, we're going to unload. I asked you guys to pack that pack within your pack. Go ahead and take that pack out. We're going to leave it over here and lock it up the chest. All of a sudden you are reenergized.

[00:31:09.68] - Jeff Sherrod

Right? Right.

[00:31:10.26] - Gregg Garner

You're going, oh my God.

[00:31:11.08] - Jeff Sherrod

There you go.

[00:31:11.68] - Gregg Garner

I got. I just feels like, yeah, this. I still have a load, but it's lighter now and I'm going to be able to do this second half. I think this is what I would like in this exercise to figuring out ways to unload and get that burden to be shared. The Bible teaches us. First of all, I hear from a lot of people, I didn't want to burden you. I didn't want to burden you. That is unbiblical. The Bible says, share one another's burdens and this is how you fulfill the law of Christ. So we have to figure out how to help each other and a person now who's able to articulate, I need this load lifted. And someone else go, hey, that's awesome. Can you carry this? I'll carry that for you. It just works better with, with who we are. Like there, there's. That's an energizing effect, right? And. But then there comes the place where even the whole team goes. There's nothing else we can do. And a good leader of that team is going to say, it's time to wait. And so waiting on the Lord means you're really waiting. And if you go back to that analogy with the fuel, you have to have the energy. So when the moment comes and the Lord shows up in the way he needs to, you can go make it happen. So like for example, with this building, what if all of a sudden, and sometimes this happens, somebody tells me, hey, Greg, Tomorrow morning at 7am I've got a breakfast for you with this certain influential donor and they really want to help out with this project. And I'm just like burnout and everything at this point. I've been waiting on the Lord to do that. I've already given it to the Lord. I haven't worried about it in a week now. This has emerged. Now I need to. It's time to fly. It's time to highly achieve now because I can do this. I can talk to the person, I can communicate the need. I can ask for help. So this waiting on the Lord is a key to prevent burnout for Me, because you really are taking your position as a human creature and needing God, which is never a bad thing, but also becoming more conscious of your limitations and also the possibilities for integration as you work with other people and develop your team.

[00:33:16.51] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. When you have people do that exercise of the things that excite them, neutral drain energy, do you mostly get a good faith effort? What I mean by that is, say, have you ever had someone like put their main things that they do in their job and they're like, I don't want to do this. And then you're like, well, that's what I'm.

[00:33:36.11] - Gregg Garner

Oh, yeah, yeah. And at that point it's like, you know what? Your job's a bad fit. Okay, yeah, we need to change. We need to change what you're doing. And the person usually has guilty, bad feelings associated with that. So you got to help them there and go, hey, wait a second. This is why things have been so tough for you. This is not you. You're not made for this. This is not something that you need to be doing. So let's figure this out. Let's change stuff. Because sometimes people, you know, it comes back to a self awareness, right? They, they, A lot of people go to college, pick a major, jump into a job, take the job, and then really don't care about the line of work. It's not uncommon for that to happen, but they just feel it's their duty now, so now they're acting out of duty. And duty oriented burnout is hard to cure without change. So my, my original assumption was we're talking about people with calling because probably just came off the calling podcast and they're finding burnout in there. Those are the things that I would highlight. But for a person who's just in a duty oriented job, like, they're like, that's a hard burnout to cure without major change. Like, you got it, you got a job change.

[00:34:46.01] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Yeah. I really like this conversation because I think that one of the ways that we're highlighting it, you know, waiting on the Lord I think has been so helpful, but also just acknowledging that so often God has already answered our needs by giving us the people around us, like that he's done that. That's not something that we did. But then what we need to do is then be able to express our need to those people sharing our burdens so that someone can say, I actually would love to do that. And this is not hard for me. Me and Laurie  work together often and this happens. Like there's things that she can do on the computer. That would really take me a long time. And she was like, it will take me five minutes. Like, you know, some kind of layout thing. I'm like, oh, thank God. That's. I don't know if you pass anything back to me the same way I.

[00:35:31.73] - Laurie Kagay

Pass it all to Nate.

[00:35:32.84] - Jeff Sherrod

Okay. So nothing comes back to me, apparently. But I'm also here to carry your burdens if you ever need anything.

[00:35:38.36] - Laurie Kagay

But.

[00:35:38.50] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, I know. I see that. And that's, you know, that's where it's helpful. As opposed to me just behind my desk so hard and I don't know. And I'm playing with, like, a font.

[00:35:46.51] - Laurie Kagay

It's the same. It's the same problem because both scenarios, you're. You're still thinking, I'm a superhero. I just have to muscle through it, you know? Like, you're just noting you're not waiting on God. You're not looking around you at the people he's given you. Both scenarios, I think, come down to that same point of you've forgotten you're a creature, and creatures are vulnerable. Creatures, you know, need to ask for help. Creatures have a creator who's looking out for them. But there needs to need to remember.

[00:36:13.32] - Gregg Garner

And I think at the various times of life, there's a varying consideration. So if I'm in my 20s, I don't actually know all my limits yet. My request for help may be just for help. Like guidance.

[00:36:24.50] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah, yeah.

[00:36:25.11] - Gregg Garner

Like I'm about to do this. I feel burnt out already, before I've even started it. I just. I can't even think of how to make it happen at that point. Your request for help could be someone who goes, okay, let's map this out. Step one, step two, step three, let's do this. The person could find at the end of implementing those steps that they really enjoyed the process, even though up front it felt like it was going to burn them out. So in your 20s, there's a different way to even ask for help than in your 40s. In your 40s, if you're doing the job you've been doing for 20 years, you have no zeal for it. You don't care about it. It's. You hate going to work and you're going to ask for help. Your help is going to be expansive. Like, there's going to be a lot of change that has to be implemented. So I think finding your ability to communicate that and then the person responding to it, also being able to appropriately respond so that if a 20 something says, I just can't do this. We can. We can ask questions like, why do you think you can't? And they could say, well, I've never done it before. And at that point, it's like, well, that's just a lack of experience making it challenging. Let's try it together. Maybe you'll like it.

[00:37:32.03] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Or they've tried it once.

[00:37:33.55] - Gregg Garner

Yeah, yeah.

[00:37:34.05] - Jeff Sherrod

It's just like, try it again here. Yeah, exactly.

[00:37:36.32] - Gregg Garner

So different. Different times in life require different responses.

[00:37:39.28] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, that's helpful. I think that this has been a really helpful conversation on this topic. If I could just mention one more thing. One of the things that you said that stood out to me, I think that maybe people would want to explore some more is that when you're saying burnout, most of this time, that does not have to do with your employment. It has to do with how you perceive it. And I think that's a challenge, man, for people listening to say, like, if you have some say in your work where you can express yourself, and if you said, if you don't have that, then look for something else. But if you have that, then this is on you to figure out. And the idea that you're going to now find another employment, this maybe goes back to calling too. Like, there's a dream thing out there, and if I eventually get this, then all my problems will go away. This is. This is false. Right?

[00:38:27.23] - Gregg Garner

It's like, yeah, but I think. I think the person who doesn't know who they are will always be discontented with what they do.

[00:38:32.63] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah.

[00:38:32.96] - Gregg Garner

That's why we emphasize becoming more than doing.

[00:38:35.32] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:38:35.84] - Gregg Garner

Like, because once. Once you become who you're supposed to be in Christ, what you do is of less importance towards fulfilling that criteria of high achievement. So we see that modeled in Jesus. Peter's like, you cannot wash my feet. This is not what you do. But it was an easy thing for Jesus to do when he saw that nobody had washed anyone's feet and he could take out his outer garment, demonstrating that because the verse even starts, the chapter is like Jesus knowing where he came from and where he was going. Like, it highlights his own, like, knowledge of himself. He gets himself, then he takes off his outer garment and serves. So a person who really knows himself the variety of things that they have to do, they no longer feel like something's below them or something's too hard for them because they've got this confidence motivated by the fact that if you are who you are in Christ, and if that's enough to Jesus, then that's enough to everybody else. So you don't mind bringing yourself to the table. Like, if a person goes, hey, can you be a part of our podcast? You're not thinking, oh, I'm not dynamic like this other person, whatever. You realize, oh, they're asking me. They know me, and I'm gonna be myself. And so you're less nervous even showing up because you're just gonna be yourself. I mean, if they don't want you, then they don't have to invite you back. But you're here, so just be yourself. And there's a lot of freedom in that that most people don't get to experience.

[00:39:59.17] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, that's wonderful. Well, thanks so much for this conversation. I think that it's super helpful for college students just to embrace the plans that God has for them to test their boundaries when they're younger, to ask for help to recognize what God has given them, and then ultimately, if they can't control it, to wait and recognize that they're not a savior. Super awesome stuff. Thanks so much for being with us this episode and we'll see you guys next week. Thanks for joining us on College Conversations. Hope you guys enjoyed the show. As always. It means the world to us. When you, like, subscribe, you tell your friends and your loved ones about this show. If you haven't yet, head over to Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcast and subscribe to it. You'll be notified anytime a new episode comes out. Also, head over to YouTube and subscribe to our channel. Let other people know about the work that we're doing. As always, let us know about any comments that you have, things that you want to talk about, things that you appreciate. We really do appreciate hearing from the audience. Until next time, we'll see you guys on College Conversations.