College Conversations S1E6: Academic Battles: Does Accreditation Really Matter? (Transcript)
Episode Synopsis
Join Gregg and Jeff at the Association for Biblical Higher Education Annual Conference, with special guests Jennifer Nyago and Institute Alum HR Professional Heather Maute. This episode focuses on the critical topic of accreditation in higher education. The group discusses how accreditation standards ensure quality and drive colleges to enhance their offerings, benefiting the entire educational community. Listen for an insightful look into how accreditation shapes and improves biblical higher education.
College Conversations Season 1 Episode 6: Academic Battles: Does Accreditation Really Matter? (Podcast Transcript)
Jeff Sherrod 0:00
Hey everyone, my name is Jeff Sherrod. We are here at the ABHE conference in Orlando, Florida doing an episode of college conversations. Really excited to be here with you guys and experienced this conference. It's, well, we'll talk a little bit about it in this episode, what we're doing here and some of the major takeaways and some of the things that we've learned through the 76th Annual --76 --Yeah! this is one of the original accreditors actually, for the United States when one of the regional accreditors
Gregg Garner 0:36
Not like just Christian and accreditors, like a accreditors, right. Yeah, yeah.
Jeff Sherrod 0:40
So that's, that's pretty cool. Accreditation, you know, I will, maybe I'll just say it real fast. While we're doing our introductions, it is a process. It's a peer to peer process where schools kind of get together, and they make decisions about how mutual improvement is important and how they can improve in that way, it is different in the American model than the European model. And that it's not just government regulators that say what schools are supposed to do. But it's a peer instituted thing to say, this is what we want to be about. And so for, especially Biblical education, schools, it's really important. Because we want to say together, you know, what are we doing?
Gregg Garner 1:15
So a bunch of standards were established. And those those standards were established to keep accountable those higher learning institutions, to what then the association would say, is an unacceptable way of being your school, right? Like these are like minimum standards that every school despite their distinctiveness has to attain to Yeah, exactly.
Jeff Sherrod 1:38
Right. So and I think that you do a good job of not being, you know, what we say is like overly prescriptive. They're not trying to say, right, to dictate the mission of a school, but they're saying, you know, figure out your mission. And then within that, here are some parameters that you need to make sure you're paying attention to your 62 view parameters. Yeah. Make sure you do it. We have some guests here. So I'd love to introduce them as they're here. I'm gonna start on this side with Miss Heather Maute. Tell us who you are.
Heather Maute 2:04
Hi, I'm Heather Maute. And I work for Genovations Consulting, and I do Human Resources. So I'm an HR specialist. I have always a Bible student first before I became an HR specialist. So that's really where my heart is. So that's why I'm enjoying you guys have a booth here in the exhibit. Yeah, we do. I've gotten to meet some wonderful people there and, you know, get to see people come by presidents. I mean, anybody that anybody that wants to come by, have
Gregg Garner 2:29
You met are there? Are there a lot of HR directors because I met one HR director today from actually Dr. Marty school? She was I was like, Hey, what's your name? She's like, my name is Terry. I was like, that's awesome. What school us she's like, well, it's a small school, LABI. I'm like Dr. Mary. And she's like, you know him? Like, yeah,
Jeff Sherrod 2:49
we had him on a previous episode. Yeah, she but but she's
Gregg Garner 2:52
Actually the director of HR. But she's like the only director,
Heather Maute 2:54
I haven't met any directors of HR. And the people I've talked to said their HR is mostly fallen into their CFO function, which
Gregg Garner 3:02
traditionally it does, right, but are most people telling you that it's not outsourced?
Heather Maute 3:07
Most people that I've spoken with have don't have an HR department, and they say, you know, they would like some help. It's
Gregg Garner 3:14
really interesting to me having sat in a lot of, because at this conference, there are different sessions on a variety of topics. And I tend to go to the ones that have to do with my position as president of the school. And we often get invited into HR conversations. And I'm always so surprised as to what we have to go over and how, how enlightened people seem to be at very basic things such as categorizing an employee versus a contractor or, or ensuring that someone is indeed exempt, rather than non exempt than what you do with one versus the other. It's always surprising to me, at these most basic elements, you have CFOs and others going oh, yeah,
Jen Nyago 3:51
especially with the legal implication. Oh,
Gregg Garner 3:53
yeah. Especially when you're at an institution that's going to be receiving federal funding for what is one
Heather Maute 3:59
I'd imagine they're dealing with all kinds of other compliance issues that require a lot of headspace and right you know, diving into the HR world is is alone other thing, it's
Gregg Garner 4:07
a lot, it's a lot to put on any any person that because as CFOs, they are responsible for the HR elements, but also even facilities elements. There is a lot to their job. But it's interesting if people don't have an HR staff, and there's still not really outsourcing. But you know, I disrupted your introduction there. I'm really sorry, but it's totally free. stuff. And I'm good gardener and who are you?
Jen Nyago 4:30
I am Jennifer Nyago. I'm the Director of Community and Student Life at The Institute for GOD International. Yes, yeah. I actually just came from a session that was evaluated was discussion on the essential elements are related to I think it's standards seven and eight, which is Enrollment Management and Student Services. And that was really interesting. Something that I've appreciated about the process of the ABHE has all the schools under go is keeping them accountable to You know, a standard that would at least give some accountability for the kind of services that they're offering to people that are wanting to learn God's Word or go through a certain program. But I got to participate on that task force to suggest some different changes that maybe can streamline what's being expected of schools and what they have to report on. So that was fun. That was a new experience. What
Jeff Sherrod 5:21
What was like what was like something? Well, what was stuff?
Jen Nyago 5:26
Tell you what something was? Something was related to retention previously on the current standards, retention as a topic that falls under enrollment management, retention, employee retention, student retention, yeah, good clarification there. student retention, and it tipic. Right now, it currently falls under enrollment management. And we made the suggestion on the task force that we move it over under Student Services, because it is something that in relation to student services that kind of go hand in hand, if your student services aren't up to par, or meeting the needs of your students, your student retention is going to take a deep nosedive. And so yeah, that was one of the suggestions that we made, and it was well received in the discussion. So we'll see what happens if it's not automatically approved. It's it goes through a whole process can take at least another year before they actually give us word on what they've received and approved and what they're going to incorporate and what they're going to change. So
Jeff Sherrod 6:23
I was on similar committee for academics. Okay. Yeah, the whole thing and made suggestions, and I tried to answer that question to you is, like, are we so we have 162 things, right. Like, do we need though? Yeah. If we're saying essential, let's make sure. It's really essential. Yeah. And some of these things are
Gregg Garner 6:39
Because the the indeed say essential, yeah, yeah. And that is something that should be routinely tested over time with the key players. Something at the conference, I think worth noting is that you have some seminars that are catered towards informing people of things that are kind of on trend, like what what's down the pipeline for schools, but then there are quite a few there on compliance considerations, right. And I think not a lot of people are privy to the compliance aspect of running a collegiate institution. And I bet if any students are listening to this, it's definitely not like their their list of considerations for a school. But it does take as you mentioned earlier, how there's a lot of headspace, from people with regard to the ever changing landscape that exists in the education space, particularly coming from like the Department of Education. And it is good to have people are on top of it. And I always appreciate those, those little breakout rooms, right? Yeah, I especially like it when we get into discussion. Do you guys find yourself in these rooms getting into the discussion? Do you feel it's lively or does it?
Jeff Sherrod 7:51
I think it depends on when we came out of one just now it was about what's called Title Nine. So Title Nine is a civil rights policy that was made in the mid 60s. And it was originally to address the idea of just making sure that there was categories for gender status on campuses to be fairly treated fairly. And by cabbages you
Gregg Garner 8:17
Met campuses. What did I say cabbage? Sounds like you did.
Jeff Sherrod 8:23
College campuses. Yeah,
Jen Nyago 8:23
together in one
Gregg Garner 8:26
in the cabbages, but by cabbages, ladies and gentlemen, K means campus. Yeah, that's
Jeff Sherrod 8:31
Right. campuses. So it was you know, it's one line. The whole policy is just one line. You know, of course, it's kind of driven from there, but they're doing kind of some major revisions that are going to come out this year. Because
Gregg Garner 8:43
The dilemma is defining defining gender.
Jeff Sherrod 8:47
Yeah, in the policy, it says sex sex findings. What is that? Right. And so Supreme Court made a decision a couple years ago, to make sure that you know, that includes sexual identity and gender issues. So, you know, that's been something that schools are trying to wrestle with, make sure they have Title Nine officer, so if there's a complaint because the idea that we want campuses to be a safe environment, that where there's equitable treatment for men and women wonder if these are wonderful rules, yeah, you know, but then it's just grows beyond that. And so even there's been a lot of issues. This has been kind of in a college campus thing overall, not campuses thing. Where people are more or less just saying, I'm offended, and I can no longer be in the room with this person. And I want to start a title nine investigation and because they're a man or a woman, just by that they can appeal to Title Nine. So part of the regs that the regulation the
Gregg Garner 9:44
Investigation is expensive. Oh, yeah. You gotta like press. It's just, yeah, a lot of the conversation at this conference, even in the last few years Yeah, has revolved around Title Nine, and how that will impact because it has a direct correlation. The title for right with regard to receiving funds. And so that's the, the undercurrent of the conversation is how are we going to sustain our schools? Right without government assistance? Yeah. And that that's, that's definitely something people need to be thinking through.
Jeff Sherrod 10:16
So I think if you, if you're listening to the podcast, you're like, Wow, that was a lot of Title Nine title for, you know, but I think it goes back to what the purpose of these conferences are, you know, make sure that college administrators know what's happening, that they're ready for the changes, that they can make an environment for a school that safe and, you know, ready to go for all the things and, you know, Heather helps us with with that, and on a lot of different levels. So, we've been happy to have her for HR stuff, she helps us. So yeah,
Gregg Garner 10:43
Cause with title nine, one of them, or the best approaches right now is to ensure that you have the appropriate documentation that is visible and easy to find, that allows for any person to see your position, particularly with respect to your religious value system, right? And if you don't, and if that is not done in a way, because that's the thing you can, you can hold certain values, and it could be even well known amongst your community, but perhaps that community, so high context, that as a school, now you have an external facing audience that is not going to be privy to your high context, right. And so you, you have to do the work of ensuring that all of the documentation is in place. And, and here we have
Heather Maute 11:35
that documentation communicates, you know, that it makes sense to people that are aware of it. Yeah, it's distributed equally to everybody.
Gregg Garner 11:43
Yeah. And so and so you have HR organizations like like Heather's that are helping people to do that. And here at the conference, they're two of the major partners of AV he would be the Alliance Defending Freedom. And Greg Baylor's here and he's been doing some breakout sessions then also, Heather and I sat in Muscat Farah, brotherhood mutual. He did a fantastic job. And it's a cool resource being here because they do give you your power, their PowerPoint slides, and all that. But these guys, you know, like, like, Scott is an employment lawyer. Like that's, that's his jam. That's what he does. So it's
Heather Maute 12:17
What's their HR’s favorite people? We love employment law attorneys. Yeah, I
Gregg Garner 12:21
know. You have quite a few on your speed dial, right. Yeah. Do we even have speed dial anymore? I guess favorites on your favorites. Oh, yeah.
Jen Nyago 12:26
Favorite
Heather Maute
I speed out works for me.
I think that sometimes when people are thinking about colleges, especially in the Christian space, because we're ministerial ly driven, we we have a hard time balancing between like our our Christian mission, like our desire to make disciples to prepare laborers for the harvest, and ensure that people know the Lord and not recognizing that even Jesus communicated that there's an inherent hostility for disciples, you're being sent out like sheep among wolves. In that case, there's a certain behavior wise servant as a dove. What does that mean? And I really think modernly there's a compliance consideration there. Yeah. Because there's a way in which we have to navigate the kind of wisdom that, as defensive says we are, because we're not the kind of people that slap back we give the other cheek. Right. You know, we do have to have a strategic wisdom. Yes. In play. And I and I have always appreciated that about these conferences coming here. The last Gosh, I don't even know how many years.
Jeff Sherrod 13:24
now. This is our sixth year we've been coming. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean,
Gregg Garner 13:29
every year, you have these different breakouts where there are compliance considerations, initially, the way they're titled, you're like, This is gonna be so boring. But then you realize, yeah, there will be no school to send out our pastures, if we don't ensure that there's this wisdom being implemented, right documentation. Yeah,
Jeff Sherrod 13:49
exactly. Right. So yeah, we've been, like Greg said, We've been coming to these conferences for six years, I think that we've kind of gone through, I can say, for at least me personally, I've kind of gone through first time I came here, I was just figuring out what this was. And learning, it was cool to meet people who
Heather Maute
are different. So I'm here. It's my first
Jeff Sherrod 14:09
First time that's wonderful. Jen has been here three or four times something like that. But yeah, I think for me, you know, it's just kind of learning different schools and meeting different people and you know, kind of seeing the good work that's being done and, but also a chance to it does give you a chance to evaluate yourself to you know, like to kind of hear all right that no school is doing that, right. Let's think about this. And I think that's something I've really appreciated about these times, is that
Gregg Garner 14:33
The network you develop because you do have a resource and others who are similarly situated, right, and can you can benefit. Yeah.
Jeff Sherrod 14:41
And so even for us, we have this kind of thing that we do we get together on after our conferences. Greg gets together on this same spot on the porch every time we kind of go through our what were the major takeaways, and I find those times like so helpful, very rich. Yeah, I think so too, because you get to hear like what was the thing that you We have a team that has been doing this for a long time and cares deeply for the students. And so, but they're hearing it through their personality and the things that they're learning ways that God has made them. And so you do get to like, see this body dynamic come out, even when people are like, what was your takeaways? Yeah, man, that thing stood out to this person. And then we get together and coordinate. Sometimes
Gregg Garner 15:20
We bring a pretty large team. Yeah, yeah, to do the conference. I think the last three years, we haven't had less than a dozen, right. And we're up to like 1819. In total. Dr. Dearborn even teased me the other day during lunch he came by and he was like, I just want to thank you for sponsoring our entire conference by bringing your team and we gave him about it. Yeah, it was great. It's like, the reason why I want our team to come out is yes, the compliance information that we learn the considerations with, like, what's, what's trending, like for example, Jen, often we tease she's often attending the the racial reconciliation,
Jen Nyago 16:05
like the poster courses. Rep for that one.
Gregg Garner 16:08
Yeah. But, um, but also the network that you develop? Yeah, I think also, it's a great opportunity for you and your team to just focus on your college, right? Because I think a lot of the smaller colleges, you have people who are doing multiple jobs wearing multiple hats, right? And you're just you're busy in the whirlwind of the day to day, and so rarely do you get to unplug from that, and then just zoom out and ask the questions like, you know, where are we heading? Right? What's it gonna take to get there? Yeah. And are we heading in the right direction? Or is there energy being used to go in that direction that we decided that yeah, we shared together as a vision. So there's, there's a lot of benefit, I think, to having the team come here. And yeah, another thing that we do is, after the conference, we do our best to spend an extra day. Yep. And just kind of debrief all of that, right. Yeah. And talk about well, and even every evening, and everything you do as we get together and just list out actionable, right? Like, what is it that we're going to do as a result of not just the information we've received, but the just the venue we've been given right to start thinking about stuff. Again, we may not have had the opportunity to think about because we're so inundated with responsibility on the typical. I was curious from you guys, though. What is in this specifically for Heather? And Jen? What is a takeaway that you think people would want to hear about? One for the student? And then one for the colleague in the education space? Like, what's the takeaway from what it is that you received here?
Heather Maute
You first jazz a little pack was,
Jen Nyago 17:49
I'm trying to Yeah, I'm trying to unpack so I can narrow it.
Gregg Garner 17:53
I think I've probably the curveballs like thinking of it for the students. But you know, it's like, that's why we do what we do. For the Lord, we do it for the students who are entrusting us with their time and even their resources. I think I have it believing that we can get somewhere right. And so I think, I think it's always important to think about what we are taking away for our students and not just our our jobs.
Heather Maute 18:20
Okay, so the thing that keeps coming to mind, even when I'm speaking to people at the booth that I'm at, I keep saying, you know, I am a Bible student. First, I was a Bible student, before I became an HR professional. I don't even think I would have had a heart for this profession. In this work, had I not been a Bible student, and that consideration been put into me for protecting something that's so valuable and so precious to me. Like, you know, Bible institutions, Bible colleges, these are these are such precious things to our whole society. I mean, it's keeping it functioning, yeah,
Gregg Garner 18:50
with your job. If those elements of compliance aren't kept up, it really can be the end of that institution. The kind of investigation that's deployed the the kind of costs that can be so detrimental, people find themselves.
Heather Maute 19:06
Yeah, so for the students who study the Bible, study the Bible first. It is so important. It'll be it'll change your whole life. And it's incredibly valuable. And I think anybody who has really has the people who've had the most valuable things to say, the things that have stuck with me the most are people who really know that word. And they're really putting it out there. They're really communicating without authority that comes from knowing God's word for the student. I would say that and then for my colleagues, I would also say something very similar, probably, you know, in value compliance. It's, it's it's important because it does protect Yeah,
Jeff Sherrod 19:38
yeah. I think that's a great point. One of the issues or things that we've heard up from the last few years is various paths to expedite college, even if it is a Bible college, you know, so people are coming in with dual credit and they did a lot during high school, they're taking CLEP and I talked to one person he was saying he has a daughter who had 60 units down by the time she showed up to college. And see, I think that's an interesting thing. She finished two years she finished. So she was she was 20 and done with school. And you know, probably going to try to go on do some professional degree, I'm sure she's doing great. But my point is like you, someone might look at your path Heather and say, Well, I'd like to get to where I'm going more directly, so that I can start doing the thing that I want to do. But you're saying it's like, this wasn't it's a, it's a misnomer to think I went about it. And like this inefficient, silent, I
Heather Maute 20:30
Felt like that as a college student, I felt like, Man, if I could just download everything into my brain that God wants me to know, I could really get something done. But it was the journey that was so important. It was education that was so important. It was the people that invested into me that I knew, yeah, that the relationships that I built the trust, you know, all those things that that really meant something. Yeah,
Gregg Garner 20:51
To me everyday. Anytime I hear anything, it's, I just have a big filter with Scripture. And, and what you guys are talking about really does remind me of the young guy in Matthew 19, who's doing well, his family's done well, and he comes up to Jesus. And he's like, I have a lot of transferable credits for my youth.
Jeff Sherrod 21:12
Yes, yeah. How
Gregg Garner 21:13
Can I? How can I inherit you? Right? Yeah, you know, this, the legacy that it seems that that you're about to film for Jesus, he's still he still goes back to you know, those those basics and is trying to teach them and when he highlights what he lacks, in the a lot of people misconceive that what he lacks is I don't even know how they they, they rationalize it, but they often just go to the next line says, Well, you haven't given to the poor. Well, what he lacked was being poor. That's weird, right? But the real thing that she has communicates is the follow me, like, what do you what do you lacked was this venue, right? Yeah, walking with Jesus and following him without the distraction of what it was that he thought gave him identity, right. And I think for Bible students there, they're, like, even in the seminar, Laurie and I, the VP of enrollment at the institute, just came out of one where the enrollment officer, he's, he's the head of the enrollment management team. He kept saying EMT, and I just kept thinking, emergency medical tech, enrollment management. He's the head of that at Asbury seminary, and he gave a great, a great talk. But one of the things he said was when he first got into it, some years ago, the number one thing that people were looking for to go to Christian College was a Christian worldview.
He says today, it's a straight up job. And he says, the result of that is when they're looking at just for a job that now makes every Christian school, put into the pool of options of any school out there, every school out there, because that's what everybody's doing. And if we don't help our young people recognize that it's not about what you do. It's about who you become right? And who we want to become as a person in Christ. Yeah. And if you bypass that discipleship of becoming, and just going to doing Yeah, I think it's part of the reason why we're in the mess we're in right now. And we're not helping by just encouraging it. I think even like the dual enrollment thing.
I know, there's a monetizing factor to all of that, that people are very interested in. But it's like, it also seems that we're just making college high school part two, right? Because then, because not only am I the President of College, but also the owner of several businesses that have me doing hires, and I can't tell you how many times I've hired that graduate from that prestigious institution who on paper was everything, master's degrees, whatever degrees they had, whatever credentials they had, and then you bring them to work. And they don't, they don't know what they're doing. Right. And it's like the not only do they not know what they're doing, because some people will go that's given, you have to make that consideration. People really learn on job, but I don't even merely mean what they're doing with respect to the job. But I mean, what they're doing with regard to their lives, like what identity and mission and what do they value? What are they going off after they find themselves now secured in a position and they're still asking questions that should have been answered in the discipleship process of walking with Jesus. Right. So you know, there's, there's Peter and the guys on the other side of that, like, man, like we gave up everything, like what what just happened? How can anybody experience the salvation that you're talking about? Like, like, and Jesus has to remind them that it's it's not a it's not a healthy consideration when you think that having given up everything it's it was just a loss?
And that's a big conversation right now in the education space, like, what's the ROI? Yeah. Oh, my education. Like I'm gonna go follow Jesus. What's the return on that investment? Well, Jesus has something to say about that. Yeah, he's like, I'm telling you, for all of you who have left fam lease and you know your wife or property or, or land. Whatever it is, it's something that in this age and he does add with persecutions, yeah, would be returned to you exponentially, right? And if we're really paying attention to Jesus and he's our Lord, we have to get that the ROI is not calculated on p&l and balance sheets that we submit to accountants and the IRS. Yeah, you know, this, this ROI is one that Jesus would even have to highlight is not only for this age, but even in the age to come. Yeah, right. And so I feel like as institutions were really, for lack of better term, you're selling ourselves short. When we don't highlight the fact that Jesus answered the question. He wants to know how much they inherit eternal life. And at the end, Jesus is like, what you guys have done? It's for this age and the age to come. Yeah. And he answered the question for his disciples, right, because what did they do? They left everything to follow him. Yeah. And if students can, because these young people, man, they love the Lord, but they're also listening to a bunch of adults, many of which have definitely, perhaps, have aspects of developmental trauma that's coming about because of the Great Recession, you know, 708. And so now they're thinking, Man, how can my kid not I don't want my kid to go through that. And a lot of these kids coming to college Gen Z, they're brought up in that, and then we've got the second recession, that's happening. And so it's like, no wonder everybody's like, job.
Heather Maute 26:37
And value everything by the dollar. Yeah, time, everything energy, they're putting $1 on everything, rather than even. That's one of my criticisms. And hiring, I often find it concerning when it's like, there are a lot of other benefits. There are a lot of other things happening in this in a company, one of my clients or whatever, where you can actually make a connection you can be invested into, they're going to care about your continued education, they're going to care about creating a work environment that is safe, that's nurturing, that's, you know, encouraging, it's going to, when you make a mistake, they're actually going to teach you and they're going to reward that learning.
Gregg Garner 27:11
those those values, they come from people who are learning from Jesus, right, I'm sure that there are some best practice gurus out there who are deploying their books, and people are memorizing their seven point systems to whatever, right, but like a biblically literate person, that you just hear whatever it is that the person is talking about. And for like, one of the things the guy said he liked, like the book, and the last one I'm trying to remember is something about the three boxes. And like the first box was related to focusing on the day, the second box was about letting go of strategically letting go of aspects of the past, forgetting the past. And then the third one was about like, plunging forward. And I'm like, Man, that's Matthew six, Philippians, three, and then, gosh, any number of prophetic texts, let's just go with Isaiah 60, right like that. You could have already got all that. Right from the education, but sometimes I wonder, Are we are we giving the kind of Biblical education that is enabling a student to feel like okay, now that I'm done, and I find myself in the work field, like, do I know who I am? Right? Right. And I just, it's, it's a dance, right? It's a dance between compliance, low standards, expectations, keeping your school alive, because most schools are tuition driven. So they do need that kind of income. And now the competition and the desires job, I get the mixes volatile. But this is where our faith comes in. Right? And everyone who does or hears these words, and does them, right, they can build the kind of house that withstands the inevitable storm work, or one years, it doesn't do it. And so for me as a as an institution, I think that all of us, as Christian colleges, have to make sure that what we're building is a result of what we've heard from Jesus. We're not building as a result of what we've heard from Jesus, and we're just doing it based upon what what, you know, the trends are stating, there's, it may work for a little bit, but there's no guarantee from God.
Jeff Sherrod 29:15
Right? Yeah. And I think along with that, there's that perception that if I achieve a college degree faster, or get into a job faster, that's going to translate into confidence, and I'm going to feel secure. And I think even that Matthew 19 story points.
Gregg Garner 29:31
I literally made a rule recently that says I will never hire a manager in their 20s I just build on age discriminate. Internally, Heather come down the other way. Right, right. But I was just
Heather Maute
glad you know the job requirements all right. But
Gregg Garner 29:51
I'm just like, this is this there's some time that's yeah, bro and they They nurtured in a conversation with one of my 20 Something managers, they, they looked at me and just said, I basically said, I really want you to hold my hand. And I felt I felt so much love for them. Right. But I didn't, I just didn't know. Managers, right? I didn't, I didn't, but they're like, I want to hold my hand. So I'm like, I want to hold your hand. But then again, it's like, I don't want to hold it managers. Right. I'll hold this man. You gotta go that way. Grandfather. Yeah. I don't want to be holding our virginity and growing. Yeah, thing. But yeah. Which, which, again, I think most most people who go to our college are very versed in like the book of Hosea. And we get that if rain was held up by the hands of God, teach them how to walk and that nurturing element is, is there. But also when I was a child, I thought as a child, yeah, smoke as a child. But when I became man, I put away childish things. Young people need that opportunity to great.
Jen Nyago 30:55
That was even going to be a part of my, just my contribution in relation to advice for a student or takeaway for a student is to not try to bypass that time that maturation and not miss created it exactly. And don't miss the fact that, you know, even being here at the a big conference, it's like, these rooms are filled with adults who really care about what they're doing. And they care about their students and their schools. And they're looking to, you know, keep these values intact, that, you know, at all of these big schools, there are people who want to invest in their students. So as a student, like, look for those people look for those opportunities, because
Gregg Garner 31:32
You're not going to find that in an institution that is not characterized by the values of Jesus. Right, right. And it's a tragedy that Christian parents aren't pushing their kids in a direction where they would be loved and cared for by people who value the values of God. Yeah. And that that really has to change. That's another conversation.
Jeff Sherrod 31:54
The involvement that the churches and parents need to change their value system. Yeah,
Gregg Garner 31:58
yeah. Because there's no better place for that kid. To keep growing. I got let's, everybody's had to ask themselves this question at some point studying the life of Jesus. Why didn't you get started till you were 30…
Heather Maute 32:09
Yeah, right. Totally. Yeah, you are Jesus. Yeah. If
Gregg Garner 32:13
There was anyone on an advanced track.
Jeff Sherrod 32:15
It'd be him and Jesus. He was Yeah, right. He's 12.
Gregg Garner 32:19
He's going to Jerusalem University, his mom, dad, or like, what are you doing here? And he's like, I got to do my father's business. My father's a teacher, I gotta go to this school and learn that trade. And they're, they don't understand it. But we know that he grows in both wisdom and stature as a result of submitting himself to them. And we see that happen by him going home. And then you know, there's so much more to talk about that. But the basic principle would be, even the Lord didn't enter into the kind of public responsibility that he had until he was, well, most developmentalists will even categorize as the beginning of your young adulthood, right? When you turn 30, or the Greeks would call the age of the beard. Now, some some guys get their beards in high school. Yeah, but historically, apparently, right, full beard. So I think that it's it's like, there's so much to talk about with respect to you to the kind of changes that need to happen even in the last seminar that was in that was like one of the hang up points how hard it is to effectuate change. And that, and I've read that before Change management is an incredibly challenging skill. This presenter had held that it's gonna take three to five years for a culture change in your organization.
But really, at that point, you're just starting to see it, and then probably take 10 for it to finally solidify. And as I was listening, I was contending with the reality this guy in his experience, that's been it, that there, there's other data to support that. But I, I believe that when you have a bunch of like minded people, and I don't mean like minded because they all read a cultural statement or your statement in the same organization, but I mean, like minded people who have the mind of Christ, who are now going to do like Jesus says in John five, I only do what I see my father do. Yeah. So their initiatives are going to be based on things that God's wanting, very spiritual component. Yeah, that that those kinds of changes can happen fast. I mean, that was a criticism that Jesus was even lending the Nicodemus right. And so he highlights it with the wind because for Nicodemus, the change was so radical. It was likened to him having to start all over again. We're gonna have to go back to the and then Jesus is iterating that there has to be a rebirth here like we need a major change. Yeah. All right, like it. Jesus never communicates that. Obviously, Nicodemus was already born, right. So it's not like you're gonna be born for the first time. Like this is this is a rebirth. Earth, that's a major change. And it's a dramatic transformation, for most people to have that kind of change. And he was in his older age.
It's like, one day I'm gonna be at that age. A lot of the leaders a lot of my colleagues that are presidents are the age of Nicodemus, which, because it was an elder of the Jews, he's had to been over 60 years old. And one day when I'm that age, I'm, I've been preparing myself since my 20s. To remember, there's going to come a time where I'm going to be like, I don't want to do that I don't want to change like, and I feel like that when I have to listen to trap music, you know, and how it's affected. So much of hip hop, like the like the 16th note 32nd note, hi hat sound is just like, so tough for me to digest. But I'm like, I'd like to enter the kingdom of God. As are the kids was I was hard. So Jesus was like, you know, whatever is born flesh is flesh was born a spirit of spirit. There, the spiritual out the spiritual component keeps us as he would say, like the wind. Like, it goes where it wishes, you don't know where it's coming from. And that's how people are who are born of the Spirit. Yeah. So spiritual people that that doesn't mean like, wind can change fast. Yeah, you're out there. It's like, Yeah, you don't like build your life off of the direction of that when, like, you know, maybe maybe for like, the moment you you're an archer or golf player. But you you're going to test it again at the next hole. Right? Or, yeah, because because the winds change for Jesus, like what he was bringing in, in his day. And the way Nicodemus was, as as a leader, Jesus was trying to teach him you're gonna have to develop some spirituality that lends itself to you being a leader of change. Right. And that's a spiritual exercise. Yeah,
Jeff Sherrod 36:56
yeah. Cuz it isn't just a bias towards innovation. Right. You know, it's, its insistence on spirituality. Yeah. maturation, which is gonna look innovative, often. Yeah. But we're not just saying change, because the world is changing. And we're going to do the next thing. It's we're saying, we're, as long as we have that mind of Christ. Yeah, that Philippians two thing, that we're gonna serve one another and not consider ourselves higher than we are. We're gonna find that we can work together to meet the needs of
Gregg Garner 37:26
People around us fast, and we can change fast and we can adapt and we can accommodate like, I mean, for me, what I did is I just took myself to a little school, you know, I started with some Drake, and then was like, Okay, I'm gonna tolerate this. And you. Yeah, I was just, I gotta move on. You know, I gotta find some some other guys. And I'm like, juice worlding it. And I'm like, Alright,
Jen Nyago 37:52
you're committed.
Gregg Garner 37:54
I didn't know this. Right now, because I realized we have cameras here. Yeah, it's fine. Like, is this research? You're like, what are you doing? You're a college president,
Jen Nyago 38:08
You're entering the kingdom.
Gregg Garner 38:12
To chat until you've listened to a little rod wave. You don't even know what's happening on
Jen Nyago 38:17
Education right here.
Gregg Garner 38:18
This is like, get ready. So first of all, you're starting to hear a little music, comeback, right? This has been a pleasant and it's like, well, where's your interest along that's another thing that's come back as a
Jen Nyago 38:30
long intro.
Heather Maute 38:33
Song still short, though.
Gregg Garner 38:36
Or guidance. So a lot of themes come up these guys stuff, you know, like, lack of self worth wanting to, like have some one tell him he's somebody he's seen his love. And like, I don't know. I'm hoping other presidents are listening to what you think he's college age. Right? He's like 10 years old. I hope other presidents are trying to hear where these guys hearts coming from what they want because like, the music now it's really emotional. Yeah, it's emotional is it there's a lot of words speaking to their context. But again, go with the analogy of being a Nicodemus if you already feel like your institution is like established and forever, right? Because I mean, gosh, when when Jeremiah told them this temple God's not gonna dwell with you here and then when Jesus is like, not one rock will be left on top of the
Jeff Sherrod 39:30
other. Yeah. Guide says it's gonna happen fast. Yeah, and guys in the Sanhedrin
Gregg Garner 39:34
are like, this temple has been here longer than you, right? And this this, this whole thing is, you know, their their ideas about permanence, connected to the strength of their institution. history reveals to us that Jeremiah was right. Jesus was right. And there's there's some There should be some insecurity. Anytime we are investing ourselves in our evaluation of institutional strength, independent of spiritual evaluation, right, of whether or not the mind of Christ is being considered in all respects. Yeah, how we function? Yeah, that makes sense.
Heather Maute
Yeah, even the speaker this morning, he spoke a little bit about, you know, kind of mixing long term planning and its traditional sense, in favor of that wind of God, that spirit of God movement, and having a very adaptable culture, in your in your institution.
Gregg Garner 40:42
I just wonder, like, how many presidents and higher ups at our schools even thought that what he said could be practiced? Yeah, yeah. I'm sure people are interested, and they can hear it. And they're like, Yeah, but then when you get to the pragmatics, right? Like, how do you, especially when you're hearing, it's gonna take 10 years to implement a change? Right, right. I can't even imagine what the world's gonna look like 10 years from now. And if somebody else is predicting and saying it's gonna look like this, I remember going back to the feature two came out. And Michael J. Fox is riding a hoverboard skateboard, right? Do you know what year it is? 2015. In the 80s, they imagine that in 2015, we would have hoverboard skateboards. Yeah. Right? They were like, way off. Right? Yeah. And so with, with all that we imagined and think about looking at the future, we know that for Jesus, it's like, you know, there's enough anxiety ahead, like today, right? What's going on the day? How are we pursuing the kingdom of God with the priority? And how are we pursuing righteousness? And then those things be added to? So it's like, if and I know that most believers if they have a scriptural mandate, or Scriptural support, there's an energizing element to that. Yeah. You know, because that's their conviction. But I think when we're just throwing data at people and highlighting trends, yeah, like, it's, it's, it's merely an option. But when you're preaching scripture, and teaching scripture, it turns into a mandate, right, you know, becomes something that's like, because many recover Me in that day and say, Lord, Lord, did we not? And isn't it? Like, I don't know you've been doing it, not according to the Bible. Right. And it's, it's concerning, that we collegiate institutions are having to contend with the temptations associated with figuring out how to sustain our institutions. Yeah. Amidst all of the, the storms, and implement our faith, right at the same time, because that, that that faith and that wave, it's, it's risky. Yeah.
Jeff Sherrod 42:55
And if it's not risky, it's not faith. Yeah, into something.
Gregg Garner 43:00
And an institution is inherently risk adverse.
Jen Nyago 43:03
right. I mean, that's Yeah, it's like, part of the point.
Jeff Sherrod 43:06
You want people to donate to? Yeah, in some way, removing all risk. And so you got something other than a Christian school?
Gregg Garner 43:15
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. It's, it's, um, so much of what we go after. I've seen like, if we're talking about we, as educators and, and Christian schools, like in the plural, it seems that what we so often go after, is what it is that we see is working, right. And so we see that it's working for them over there. We want someone from there to write a book, someone from there do a seminar, we're going to do what they're saying. And there's really nothing wrong with that. But whatever it is that they're doing that there, it's working over there, according to what everyone else is teaching. They started that 10 years ago. Yeah. The time it took for them to write that book, right? And to get it published and everything. There's a few more years in there. We're on a lag, right. And now you've got everybody else now accommodating the lag model. Yeah. But really, what everyone needs to recognize is that the most awesome thing about serving our God is that He sees all of us, right, and knows all the numbers on our head. Yeah. You know, like, that's like a very specific thing. He knows us. He knows what we need, right? And we need to go to him and what do we need as our institution I want to do what I see My Father doing. What are the next steps? Yeah, and how do we make that happen? And so that, you know, you've probably heard that necessity is the mother of invention, right? Like the innovations that we want to implement. Their innovation isn't gonna work for my situation, right? I need I need the God who told Noah Hey, time to build an ark. Yeah. Then there's like been no rains like this before. What are we building And it's he's like all obey, I'll do it. And if more collegiate institutions found the freedom, right to do that, right, and just to serve God because the temptation there is to serve money, but to serve God in and to implement his agenda like that, that that faith element now being put into play, pleasing God coordinate Hebrews 11. Six is now now part of your components to success. It's I think for me whenever I think about talking about this, write about it like because in your head, you start going like should I read something on this, but then I always go back to it's already been written. It's called the Bible like, like, we just got to get back to the Bible. Yeah,
Jeff Sherrod 45:43
make sure people understand it, teach it and this goes back to the time element. Yeah, you know, like, people need enough time to wrestle through what you're saying, to consider it to get the text in their heart. Otherwise, you just start a certain way, and then it just turns into money. Yeah, the Bible.
Gregg Garner 45:58
The Bible can't be a stamp on what you're doing. Like, Oh, I like this verse. I'm gonna add to that. Yeah, the Bible has to be the the impetus, it has to give the initiative, everything else has to launch out of that word. Because just like the prophet Isaiah spoke, like, when that word goes out, it doesn't return void. And that concept of voidness is the same term that's in the book of Genesis. Yeah, right, that chaoticness the disorder. And when God's word goes in, it's going to bring order, it's going to bring beauty, it's gonna bring life, right. And so like, there's, there's this guarantee for us believers in Christ, that when we implement or allow our initiatives to be birthed out of the word, that God is going to carry it forward. Yeah. And I'm so I'm so thankful that I have a team that has that conviction. Yeah. And
Jeff Sherrod 46:47
I'm happy to be part of the team. Yeah, it's carried us a long way.
Gregg Garner 46:49
And they do believe that so many schools have, just like Jen said, it's amazing people, but they themselves are gonna have to assert themselves. And it'll feel like a revolution. Yes.
Jen Nyago 46:59
Well, and that's what that's on behalf of Jesus. Right? That was even what I was thinking, you know, in regards to colleagues and a takeaway there is just, you know, for people to consider what God's Word says, and then look at their own context, look at their own students look at their own institution, and then meet with the Lord in that and really just seeking him to find out a way forward, that can't go wrong, if they do that. And that in some cases, it might even mean, you know, rattling things up a little bit and going, come on, we need to get back to some basics here, some spiritual disciplines, let's, but for people, you know, in the Student Life realm, or student development, you know, everybody jokes, at least I've heard it a few times over the years, like, well, everybody technically does student life, regardless of what role they're in. And it's like, yeah, you know, yeah, it kind of makes sense. But at the same time to like, for those student development workers to recognize, like, a lot of them do have their ear and their, you know, feet to the ground closest with the students themselves, in a lot of cases, outside of faculty, teaching them in the classroom, like, they know what some of those needs are. And if they don't, they should get in there and find out what they are and, and really, you know, start speaking on behalf of and having conversations say, Hey, I think we need to meet this need here, or, you know, even looking at the music, you know, and hearing about what their generation is contending with and concerned with, like, our schools can really be an answer to that in a lot of ways, and you're providing venue for addressing some of those real needs. And I love everything that we're talking about here, even in consideration of God's word. It's yeah, it's really inspiring and encouraging.
Gregg Garner 48:37
Awesome, let's just do some quick closing thoughts. So so it just like a capstone to this conversation, did something stand out to you to remind you something you want to get some words out? What do you got for us?
Jeff Sherrod 48:49
Yeah, I think I think for me, the thing I kind of go back to is, is just remembering that there is always going to be change that happens. When people follow Lord, you know, like, that's, that's part of what you know, even when you're referencing John, John three, that was kind of what stood out to me. And instead of just saying, Well, this institution has been effective for so long, we'll just kind of keep it going the same way. It's always been going, it's not going to work the same way. We have to be responsive to Lord responsive to the needs that are around us. And that's gonna mean that we have to have sacrificial lives. Yeah. Because that's going to be like you said, you get older, like, it's harder to change us wanna be like, I've learned a certain way. And I want to do it that way. Yeah. But love is sacrifice. And that's what we continue to do until until we're done. You know, we're not we're not done with sacrifice. We keep moving with it. Yeah. And recognizing it's gonna be the thing that helps this world when the students, yes.
Heather Maute 49:46
Yeah, I think I would just continue to lean into that biblical foundation, like so many scriptures came up. I mean, it was just it makes sense of everything. Yeah. And it helps, you know, give context to things that seem so undiscernible also confusing at times understanding the world that these students are coming up in understanding the concerns they have. But then if they have people in their lives, I remember being young and looking at colleges and looking for people in my life to be role models. And I was always wondering, Where are the adults who are following Jesus. And I was around a lot of Christians, but I was I was looking for something else. I was so hungry for people who had conversations like this. I was so I just wanted to be a part of something like that. And I think just keeping that in mind as you're the you know, the your reference to Nicodemus, that is a huge thing that we all need to keep in mind. Like, we can't count ourselves out from that. Yeah, you know, we can't act like we're exempt from from that text, that text is there for us to consider. Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Gregg Garner 50:43
great. Yeah, thank you, Heather. Yeah.
Jen Nyago 50:45
I just keep thinking about, you know, how our ability to love one another, whether it's loving our co workers, loving, you know, our colleagues, loving our students, you know, that that can be an it lets people know, who are associated with, with God. And it's that, you know, they'll know us by our love for one another. And I think that would be, you know, when I'm listening to the different sessions we've been in and looking at what we're doing, that's the thing that sets us apart from the rest of the world is our love for one another. But it's, it's not just coming from ourselves. It's something that God's doing in us. And it's because we've received from him. And I think that if we all can, like, embrace that, you know, element of being set apart in that way and do that in all our schools. And whether it's a staff meeting, or a board meeting, or classroom setting, or, you know, a, you know, event a student event, like if that becomes like one of the main objectives during that time. And then you're asking your question, what does it look like in this particular venue? Like we could really start shining a even brighter light, and then what we're already doing? Yeah, I that's kind of where my mind has been going. Even in hearing some of the different things I've been hearing at this particular conference. Yeah.
Gregg Garner 51:58
Well, I appreciate you all for being here. And for our studio audience who's out there. I am thankful that we have this opportunity. And he and Dr. Dearborn and his crew, Carol, gosh, just wonderful people. I know that this year's theme, I'm trying to remember it's like you're the Bible. You're the Bible, right? Like how appropriate even for what we're discussing. Yeah. And I just know that. Because I, as I was telling you guys, yesterday, we were on a conversation like, I just love being a part of the bible school movement. And in keeping that legacy alive, that even you know, as as American Bible schools, we we have this rich legacy of people coming together to say, the Bible is important. And young people need to learn it. And then when they took it out of our schools, we created the schools right and get it back. Yeah. And even though we're in an, as everybody's been saying, unprecedented times, where there is a lot of there are a lot of challenges. We know that if God's for us who can be against this man, we have an ace in our pocket and grace. Yeah, right. Like we are going to overcome. And we need to move forward and faith knowing, believing and knowing that, that God's God's will is going to be done because his kingdom is coming. As as heralds of that kingdom, it's such a privilege. Yeah, for sure. COVID. So thank you guys.
Jen Nyago 53:37
Thank you so much. All right.
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