S2E24: Why You Can't Wait to Pursue a Biblical Education

Summary: Gregg Garner, Jeffrey Sherrod, and Institute Professor and historian Shaun Galford discuss the importance of prioritizing biblical education, emphasizing the need for understanding beyond symbols and procedures. They highlight the role of the community in educating the next generation and stress the significance of passing down faith and values, drawing on historical lessons.

S2E24: Why You Can't Wait to Pursue a Biblical Education

Transcript - Fri, 30 Aug 2024 20:38:10 GMT

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 20:38:10 GMT, Duration: [00:42:13.46]

[00:00:11.11] - Jeff Sherrod

Hey, everyone, and welcome back to college conversations podcast about all things related to christian higher education. This podcast is for prospective students, for parents, really just anyone that's interested in biblical theological takes on christian higher education. My name is Jeff Sherrod. I am joined by the president of GOD Mr. Gregg Garner  And today we have with us Professor Shaun Galford. Thanks for being with us, Shaun.

[00:00:33.72] - Shaun Galford

How's it going? Glad to be here.

[00:00:34.96] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, thanks for being here. Okay, so for today's podcast, we are talking about prioritizing biblical education.

[00:00:41.57] - Gregg Garner

Prioritizing biblical education.

[00:00:43.22] - Jeff Sherrod

And I think that there's. So there's a couple things I want to talk about. One is I want to talk about why we do this prioritizing. I want to talk about in two ways that recognizing that it's important, which I think we get, but also recognizing the time element related to prioritization. Like, should we prioritize it early in people's lives, or should people prioritize it early in their lives? And what does that look like? Both you guys are theologians, so I'm also interested in kind of taking it from that angle, too. And Shaun's a historical, so I'm pretty excited about that. So, yeah, we'll get to some practical considerations too, but maybe just kind of kicking off with some theological considerations. I thought maybe we could just start by taking this from kind of a human growth and development standpoint, you know, so everybody in all societies, they are acculturated, you know, enculturate it into whatever culture they're from. They're gonna learn all their values, their norms, their cultural mores. The things that they grow up with is when we're talking about prioritizing biblical education, are we saying, like, all right, the reason we need to get in early is because it combats the enculturation that's happening around the world. And maybe it's like extra important for kids for that reason, because this is like, you know, kind of a critical time for enculturation. Do you think that that kind of thing has anything, any bearing on biblical education early on? What's your thoughts?

[00:02:10.62] - Shaun Galford

I mean, I think there's like a deconstruction, deconstructive element you have to take into consideration for that. I mean, my mind goes to Genesis in something that community, Israel's community, had to deal with in exile when they found themselves in Babylon. For them at least, that first generation, it was more an acculturation experience where they're now exposed to another culture and then feeling the pressure to assimilate into the values of that society. And then we get a lot of the final form of a lot of our biblical writings come out of that period. And Genesis is one of those books. And you can see early on there's like a polemical deconstructive element to the book of Genesis because there's a concern for the generations, concern that the kids would be learning the values that come from the one true God. And so I think that that's part of it. You know, obviously, if you start your kids in biblical education early on, like christian education, that really tries to root their faith and their foundation in the word of God, that's different.

[00:03:17.65] - Shaun Galford

Than if, you know, someone's just exposed full on to the society at large, you know.

[00:03:22.55] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:24.36] - Gregg Garner

Jeff, can you, can you ask that question again? Maybe in another way, because I had a hard time tracking it at the outset, but Shaun had a fantastic answer, so it's obviously me, but maybe you can.

[00:03:35.84] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, I guess maybe I'm starting broad here, and so we'll try to narrow this if I'm, if I'm being too broad, but I'm just looking for to say, like, you know, kids get part of human growth and development is enculturation, right? Like, we're all developing our values, our mores, just from our culture around us, certainly from our parents, but then also recognizing that we also want to get those values, our perspectives from the Bible. So how does biblical education compare and contrast, maybe just to, like, the kind of general enculturation that we're happening? Is it, is that where, you know.

[00:04:06.25] - Gregg Garner

Me, I want to define terms, so let me define terms for our audience. Enculturation would be the axiomatic experience of a person growing up in any singular environment wherein they take on values that are promoted in that environment, again, without knowing that it's happening where acculturation, which you brought up, the contrast would be that a person is now intentionally engaged in the appreciation of the culture and then assimilating in some way as to navigate that culture that was not indigenous to them. So enculturation is the process that in our society happens typically, I'd say, in two modes. The child's experience in school and in the media that they watch. Those are probably the biggest contributing factors to enculturation outside of the family unit. And then acculturation, again, being the conscious process, is just going to be dependent on, first a person having a base culture that they were enculturated into. And usually it's not until you're in the process of acculturation that you even really examine what you're enculturing. But anyways, these are the terms that we're working with. And then you're saying, are you basically asking what role does biblical education have to play in enculturation?

[00:05:34.51] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah. Is it even fair to talk about biblical education as part of enculturation? Like, are we starting that young when we're talking about. All right. Prioritizing biblical education means that there's some things that are just going to be axiomatic in the way that parents are raising children, that they're learning the Bible as their.

[00:05:53.42] - Gregg Garner

My firm belief on culture is that I, human beings create culture. And I know that there's a school out there of thought where God's the one who creates culture. I don't see that in the Bible. Instead, I see that God gives human beings the freedom to create culture. And I would think that the words God gave through Moses to Israel had within it the expectation that children would be enculturated into the symbols and even the value statements of their faith. That being the case, I do think that biblical education if institutionalized for a subset of a culture, right?

[00:06:38.32] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:06:39.05] - Gregg Garner

If they are to do that, it should integrate into the children's coming up experience. These. For the Jews, it starts with recitations, right? Hero Israel, the Lord of God. The Lord is one, right. And then it moves into the hebrew school that the kids attend to, and then they turn into little cantors and they have their first bar mitzvah that they're going to do or sing or whatever. Right? That's an enculturation process that's intentional, institutional and has been going on for a really long time.

[00:07:14.19] - Shaun Galford

Right.

[00:07:14.62] - Gregg Garner

So I think that if you have christian communities that are concerned with whether or not the future of their faith would exist in their children, they definitely should be in the business of institutionalizing the subculture that they're promoting and making sure that it starts early with the kids. I think that it's more than the Jews. A lot of people do this. It's just, again, axiom so people don't examine it. So basic enculturation consideration would be, why? Why do you feel bad if there's no presence under the tree at Christmas? And the person's like, well, we always had trees. We always had presents under the tree. And I heard this one year when it was the great recession and my parents lost their job, we had no presents under the tree. And that was the worst feeling. So I'm determined that from now on, my kids will have presents under the tree, and we'll do a whole thing. And it's not about the materialism. It's about the family getting together. That's why we do a dinner. So this person now is trying to systematize and institutionalize a pattern of symbolic values. They're not actual values connected to statements. The value is in whether or not there's presence under the tree. The value is in whether or not they sit around the table or make that recipe that's passed down from great grandma. And these are the basic building blocks for childhood education. Right. Anybody coming in? We observe and learn through symbol and practice before we start to make sense of that symbol and practice. So I would think that the process of education for the young person, even though it does start with symbol and procedure, should culminate in significance and understanding. Right? So the danger would be that someone thinks, I, this is a mechanism for some, like, derogatory way of saying it would be like brainwashing or manipulation. Instead, it's a safeguard for the values that the community at large holds and believes now should be passed on. And the best way to do that is through that scaffolding course of education that starts with symbols and procedures and culminates in significance and understanding.

[00:09:36.30] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:09:36.75] - Shaun Galford

Yeah. That seems to be the movement in Deuteronomy six.

[00:09:39.00] - Gregg Garner

Right.

[00:09:39.39] - Shaun Galford

That focuses so much on, you know, really saturating your environment in the word of God. Like, when they're young, you go, and it's from generation to generation.

[00:09:48.20] - Gregg Garner

So initially, like, a person would be like, oh, my church, we just have these banners with scriptures up on them. And I just love that. That's why on our campus today, we have banners of scriptures on them. There's a symbol, there's the procedure, but we want the person as an adult to go to the significance, what's it mean? And the meaning. Right, which is what you're saying. You're like, in Deuteronomy six, you're expected to put these scriptures up on existing facilities, doorposts, gates, that people can actually see it. So now you're developing understanding in the adult. And the authority for the value extends beyond, at least for us as a religious community, extends beyond any human initiative. This now is sourced in the divine command. So that allows us to unify around such a symbol and procedure, especially as we develop an understanding. Otherwise, if you don't teach the significance and understanding, the kid could grow up and go, I don't even know why we did that. That was just so dumb. And then they make fun of the banner dancers and all the things like.

[00:10:56.33] - Jeff Sherrod

And then just make fun of all kinds of things.

[00:10:58.49] - Gregg Garner

Right.

[00:10:58.75] - Jeff Sherrod

Why did we do any catechism? That was funny, wasn't it? Yeah, it's like things like, oh, man, that would have been real helpful, right.

[00:11:04.83] - Gregg Garner

But they don't get there until their grandparents like, what is going on with our grandchildren? And then thinking, I taught my children better than this, which they likely did, but it might have been mostly symbol and procedure instead of significance and understanding or significance and meaning. You know, it's like they, the more conscious a community, a subculture culture becomes of these things, I think the better outcomes of.

[00:11:36.25] - Jeff Sherrod

And that's why I kind of wanted to start with this. I think that sometimes there might be a misconception, even if it's not conscious. I think that maybe it's, it does happen. Maybe people are not consciously saying, well, I'm not going to teach the Bible. It maybe happens subconsciously. Is that, well, we're growing our kids up in a christian household or in a church and you know, yeah, they're learning. They're learning it and we're saying they're learning something. For sure.

[00:11:59.00] - Gregg Garner

For sure.

[00:12:00.71] - Jeff Sherrod

Unless there is words attached to this, which is what we're saying is the education process, they're not going to get the significance and then they're going to drop them as they, as they keep on going on.

[00:12:09.14] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. And they're just going to parrot whatever it is that they heard said. Which, by the way, repeating a statement without having any understanding of its significance is just the same as scribbling out or sculpting another symbol, the sentence. The words themselves are symbols, too. So, for example, in christian community, people can say things and have, like, statements of conviction, God is in control, don't worry about it. God is in control. Fantastic statement. Resonates in the hearts of so many people. But the adult life, to live it out in truth and to experience, especially some of the hard, tragic moments that exist in adult life. To have someone come to you and say, God is in control, could feel really bad when the bad thing happened to the good person, especially. Cause like, well, if he was in control, then he let it happen, then the next thing is like, well, he has good plans and it's better now as a result. And you're like, in pain. So to me, that phrase was just a symbol with a procedure. And the person knew the procedural use of the symbol would be in event that something is unexplainable, God is in control. And the cultural sensation would have been comfort, sense of comfort. But it's at the expense of not implementing the worship with the mind to understand. Because, you know, like, I literally had someone tell that to me after my best friend for 25 years drowned in the ocean on mission. And they're like, don't worry. God's in control. And just the reasonable part of any person is like, why didn't he control that one? Why didn't he prevent the fatherless situation of five kids? Why did. Why did he take a husband just 17 years into a marriage? Why did he take away a best friend? All these different things, and no longer is that symbol sufficient. God is in control. But people hear that symbol as significance, so then they're threatened. If you actually want to talk to them about the significance of the statement. Their. Their emotions are so tied to the. The enculturation that, um, they're just gonna put you in the category of bad, different.

[00:14:49.87] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:14:50.69] - Gregg Garner

You know, which. Which becomes evil really fast.

[00:14:52.86] - Jeff Sherrod

It does, yeah. Like, the person is bad evil because xenophobia takes.

[00:14:56.23] - Gregg Garner

I can't believe they don't believe God is in control. Nobody even said that. But there's this mystery that exists when you just start asking basic human adult questions. Yeah, God was in control. Why didn't he save them? If God is in control, why didn't he think, why didn't these things happen? And I'm not. And if the person goes, you know what? We don't know. But God's still in control. They don't get that. They're. They're implicitly communicating in a more assertive fashion that God made that happen.

[00:15:23.46] - Jeff Sherrod

Did this actively.

[00:15:24.54] - Gregg Garner

God made that happen. He was in control, and that's what he wanted to have happen. Live with it. And everybody's gonna give that advice until it's them. Yeah, until it's them. And now they're quiet. Right now they'll be quiet because the faith that they got through symbol and procedure is not robust enough for the adult experience. That requires significance in meaning, significance and understanding.

[00:15:49.76] - Jeff Sherrod

I thought we maybe could. We've brought Deon army six a few times. I did have a question about this. I was curious what you guys thought about formal education in general, because I have heard people say, I mean, I know that's a big statement, but when it comes to biblical education, I've heard some people, people say that biblical education is primarily a home endeavor. And they almost cite Deuteronomy six as, like, well, you know, it's not. It's not. And even homeschoolers, you know, sometimes they'll do this. It's like, you know, it's not really for schools to do. This is like something that parents are supposed to pass on to their kids. And they'll argue, I'm sure, for the conscious kind of teaching. But, you know, where do you think that one.

[00:16:26.79] - Gregg Garner

Do you think that it's a terrible misreading? The misreading is based upon western modern cultural individualism.

[00:16:34.97] - Shaun Galford

Nuclear family organization. Like, yeah. Just as an individual.

[00:16:42.91] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. So I think if anything, the verse promotes the reality that parents, parents have the primary responsibility to ensure that their children are getting a biblical education.

[00:16:56.91] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:16:58.04] - Gregg Garner

It is unrealistic to think that every family can be responsible for their kids education as a whole. Okay, so I know this guy. He's probably in his sixties, approaching seventies at this point. And he had several kids. They're all adult kids now. He didn't like me. He met me when I was in my twenties. And I, of course, wanted to emphasize biblical education. He was a big proponent of, you know, it's fine, kids are in public school, they can teach whatever they want, but when they're with me and at home, I'm going to teach them our biblical values and all this kind of stuff. And we didn't have too many exchanges, but every time there was some kind of conflict related to that perspective, you know, we're familiar with the phrase time will tell. First of all times mute. It doesn't say anything. But what we mean by that is that whether or not what it is, we believe the outcome to be in the future when time passes and it's had enough time to incubate whatever it is that we're proposing to be a solution, we'll now discover whether or not it was effective. So this guy has all adult kids now. And in my opinion, like more than half of those adult kids are somewhat dysfunctional, meaning they even, and specifically with respect to their faith. So this is again coming from somebody who's like, this is how you do it. This is what happens. But now it's too late for this person. Kids already grown up, right? But what's gonna be shocking is that the person is so bent on, on their symbolic procedural values that they can't. In their mind, I think it had nothing to do with their approach. It just had everything to do with these unseen circumstances that just take place in human living rather than recognizing, hey, maybe you should have made a mistake. You should have prepared your kids for adulthood, and you need to outsource some of that stuff, like, especially if any of us are gonna work a full time job or what? Stay home? Mom has the capacity to teach the range of subject matter with any kind of proficiency. That's necessary for a kid to grow up. And this is not because I'm against homeschooling. If you want to homeschool, go for it. That's your guys family's decision. And we even have an umbrella program at our k through twelve school to give parents the maximum freedom for how they homeschool, meaning we value your autonomy, we value your choice. And if you're gonna do that, we're the kind that's so hands off, do whatever you want. We'll just give you the umbrella thing and make sure that attendance elements and, you know, the very bare minimum that the state requires are there. But to realize what Deuteronomy six is talking about. This is Moses talking to the community at large. He is talking to all of them. The use of children here makes us assume that these are biological, when in fact he's talking to the community to be concerned with kids in general.

[00:20:23.69] - Shaun Galford

In general, right.

[00:20:24.82] - Gregg Garner

Well, why would the Bible do that? Well, you think when Jesus pulled that child in front of the disciples and said, if you want to be great, serve one of these, he was literally talking about that specific child in that household.

[00:20:36.13] - Jeff Sherrod

His name is John.

[00:20:38.89] - Shaun Galford

Eventually Ignatius Evanot.

[00:20:42.73] - Gregg Garner

That's funny. That's funny. That was a little history joke. But man, it's like, no, this verse is speaking to us as a community to make consideration for the next generation. When God tells Abraham, it's going to be through your offspring that all the nations will be blessed. Like, how many cousins removed are now working underneath that promise with Abraham? How many people are not even related yet? What do we call Abraham? You and I, father, father. So the Bible is not so DNA oriented. The Bible is instead, and even in the Hebrew term there, it's utilizing the word in the sense that as a society, you guys have responsibility for the governance of the justice and righteousness of God. Therefore, with your children, make sure that your cityscape is ornate with the word of the Lord. But you also got to make sure that in the home that's happening. So it's actually giving you the two venues for biblical education. But how are you going to teach your kids a biblical education if you don't have one? You know what I mean? And I see that with parents in college, like, their kids get educated. I have a. He meant this as a compliment, and I still take it as a compliment, but I also hear it as a criticism. On his m div. So I know a pastor, and this was probably 20 years ago, his kids were enrolled in the institute. And after the first year of his kid being in the institute, he comes up to me and he says, you know, I have my m div, I'm a pastor. And what I'm talking about with my son, he's already at the place where I was at the end of my degree just talking about the Bible. And he's like, I'm so impressed. So on the one hand, compliment, on the other hand, criticism, because why is that the case? Why should this first year undergrad student be learning that same level? But again, I think it goes back to significance and understanding versus symbol and procedure. Maybe that MDIV program was highly symbol and procedure, which is why I think today high church models are doing so well. It's too hard to exercise the kind of understanding that leads to significance. Because if you get biblical understanding, mystery is so much a part of your vocabulary of thought, where you leave things to the Abraham, Joshua Heschel would use that word, the ineffable, right? Like this is outside the scope of us as human beings to make any clear sense of, but we know God and that's going to be enough. Like, you have to become comfortable with the paradox of seeking understanding and actually broadening the scope of the mystery by doing so. Where with symbol and procedure, symbol procedure answers everything. Like, you know, why everything needs to be done. I had another preacher, he's a blessed brother, he's in Africa. And I was asking, we were trying to coordinate to get in a meeting and he's a pastor himself, got like 400 people at his church. He's was discipled by another pastor there who is a kind of a celebrity pastor. So he has like a big following. I think he's a bishop of maybe like 5600 churches. Wow. Yeah. So I'm trying to coordinate this meeting. He's like, I've already started a meeting and he sends a picture. And I was like, whoa, is that your church? He goes, no, no, no. I'm sitting under the, I'm sitting at the altar of my mentor and I was like, oh, this guy, because he told me about him before. He goes, yeah. And he shows me another picture of just the thousands of people out there at this outdoor Bible study that the guy does every Thursday. But the symbol was altar and the procedure was sitting at the altar. Now for a theologian, this makes zero sense, right? Like the, the altar was the table, right?

[00:24:41.11] - Shaun Galford

Yep.

[00:24:41.48] - Gregg Garner

And that's where the fellowship and the food took place.

[00:24:44.34] - Shaun Galford

Yeah.

[00:24:45.03] - Gregg Garner

And you dined at the altar. So. But the way that this, this guy was talking about it was, was almost like altar was a place of worship, just in general, you know, not really getting the understanding, the significance related to the concept, because on the one hand. Hand, he might be able to say, oh, I was fed the word of the Lord while I sat at that altar there. But the altar wasn't just about getting fed. It was about bringing something. And then maybe in symbol and procedure, it's bringing your offering. But the biblical mandate in Romans twelve from Paul, apostle, is, I'm begging with you. I'm pleading with you to bring your bodies as a living sacrifice, come with all of who you are. So really, you can't casually sit at an altar.

[00:25:39.20] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:25:39.74] - Gregg Garner

Like you actually have to be vested into what's taking place, because that altar in that community is the location for the type of fellowship that, especially if you're working like, off of a Leviticus eight and nine, that's where the leadership have to dine because they're communing with God to ensure that the community at large is taken care of in accordance to the word of the Lord. My point, again is how many people out there as adults mostly, were enculturated by symbol and procedure so that now to fulfill Deuteronomy six, they could even find themselves in contrast or in conflict with the actually biblically educated institution that's not trying to teach their kids. So now the kid comes home and the kid's like. Like a kid graduating from the academy. We're gonna, like, early on, they're like seven, eight years old, and we're teaching them that God is a savior. And everybody can agree with that, God's savior, but we're teaching that to them from the book of Genesis with respect to the flood. You would be shocked, or maybe you guys wouldn't be, but maybe our listeners would be shocked at just how many people want to make God the destroyer in the flood narrative, even though all the actions of God explicitly expressed in the text are that God is about to save Noah and this family and creation. And anybody who wants to hear the word of the Lord in a bit, he's going to save them all. But we're like, he's a destroyer. So I'm so happy that our kids could go home and say, God's a savior. But then when the parents hear comes with a story, now there's conflict because all they got was the symbol and procedure related to the story of the flood, and they never developed any understanding. They didn't really figure out the significance of the communication. Now it's a conflict. So I think it's introducing to us the two venues where a kid gets educated and that we should be responsible for the biblical education in both venues. But I do challenge the reality that there are many adults who aren't biblically educated enough to educate their kids effectively. And if you merely pass on to them procedures and symbols, you lose the predictability of outcome, because that's not what adults need.

[00:27:53.47] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:27:54.11] - Gregg Garner

Adults don't need that, especially as they. Sorry, one last story. This one's funny. So there's this village Christian is a k through twelve private school in California, and I got to work with them in Mexico on mission trips. Really cool. People really appreciated their approach with the kids, and they had really great momentum at their school. They're probably doing even better now. But there was one of their graduates who became an adult documentary filmmaker and then wrote a documentary showing that Jesus is a myth and that he was, he's a historical invention based upon certain characters. And he goes through the whole thing, exposing it. And at the very end he returns secretly to the village christian school chapel. And then just to end the whole flick, he goes, and I blaspheme the holy spirit in this sanctuary. But you can see that for this guy, the symbolic statement he really thought. So I blaspheme. The holy spirit carried so much magical weight. If he said it in the sanctuary, he should be zapped.

[00:28:59.22] - Jeff Sherrod

Right?

[00:29:00.02] - Gregg Garner

Or something should happen. So it actually becomes a proof for him. That's exactly right, that I didn't get zapped. Therefore, this symbol and procedure is irrelevant. But I'm saying most adults, if they took a very authentic approach to the symbols and procedures they were handed without developing significance and understanding, they're going to ex evangelicalize, they're going to themselves exit what it was that they came up with, either quietly and by quietly, I mean they attend for holidays, they keep it real quiet. They don't talk about anything because they don't want to say anything negative about what they grew up with. Right. They have these values, cultural, christian. Yeah. Or they turn it political, which usually.

[00:29:36.02] - Jeff Sherrod

Just means republican christian nationalism. Yep.

[00:29:38.50] - Gregg Garner

Right. Or they sit in the mess of it and need guidance. But the shepherds aren't capable of feeding them in the green pastures. So this vision that God's giving through Moses to the community of Israel to do this is anticipating future generations. It's like, look, I'm teaching you adults the Bible here, the kids here, they're the ones who need to get it and they need to really develop understanding here. And I mean, gosh, who's the proverbs written for?

[00:30:11.27] - Jeff Sherrod

Kids.

[00:30:11.83] - Gregg Garner

Kids. What's the main, like, outcome expectation for the book of proverbs for kids that they develop?

[00:30:20.50] - Shaun Galford

Wisdom.

[00:30:21.08] - Jeff Sherrod

Fear Lord.

[00:30:22.28] - Gregg Garner

Yeah, fear the Lord, which leads to wisdom. And then I think understanding, understanding, understanding, that's like the clear outline in that. Right. But we just aren't really good at making that happen.

[00:30:34.01] - Jeff Sherrod

No, we're not.

[00:30:34.93] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. And I think we need to shift. We need to change as institutions as a whole and communities have to make decisions before we sign off. I was curious, Shawn, tell us a little bit about some of these, like, christian communities post Jesus. Like maybe give us a little bit on, like, some of your favorites. I know, I know you can be fan of early Jesuits with respect to some of the things that they did. And even the Benedictines.

[00:31:00.10] - Shaun Galford

Yeah.

[00:31:01.49] - Gregg Garner

Talk to us about how their community handled this expectation.

[00:31:05.22] - Shaun Galford

Oh, gosh, there's so much there. Community that just comes to mind in particular is the Waldensians. Peter Waldo, kind of a forerunner to some of the catholic menicant orders in the medieval period, and some would even say a forerunner to the reformation. But the Waldensians, it was the time of the.

[00:31:26.86] - Gregg Garner

I think it's important that if you're listening and you hear Catholic and all of a sudden you got turned off because you're an evangelical. You got to remember that historically, Catholic, first of all, means universal, and it's referencing the universal christian movement. So it's not until after the reformation that there's even distinctions in the christian faith with respect to these things. At least Christian, Protestant. There was the greek, but just a little FYI, there continue.

[00:31:52.19] - Shaun Galford

Yeah, yeah. But even with, you know, some of those groups are on the fringe, like, you know, to get into the Irish monks, they even got absorbed into Catholicism, you know, by this point, through the synod of Whitby and so on. So you get to the, you know, the twelve hundreds. This is the high point of the Roman Catholic Church. It's also the high point of symbol and procedure, which is, you know, everything in Christianity at that time had really been relegated to that. So you have this contrast community by this guy who was really inspired by a monk who was given testimony about Jesus and is particularly sharing the story about Zacchaeus, and he happened to be like a wealthy merchant. And then hearing the story of Zacchaeus, he went and gave back everything that he had taken in more story. And so he goes on to form a community and he really wants to educate people in the word of God. So he himself gets educated, and they're concerned with educating women and kids to move towards significance and meaning and understanding. So they actually go. They march all the way to the Vatican because they want to get approved by the catholic church. Right.

[00:33:00.79] - Gregg Garner

So like a protest march kind of thing?

[00:33:02.63] - Shaun Galford

No, they just want to be part of Christianity, you know, like kind of the dominant strand of it. They show up before the cardinals and, you know, the council and everything. And essentially the. The council wanted them to repeat something, to recite something simple in procedure, and they couldn't do it because they'd been studying the Bible.

[00:33:23.16] - Gregg Garner

Sure.

[00:33:23.82] - Shaun Galford

So the council just laughs at him. Nobody even knows why they laugh. They don't know enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they get completely rejected, but they essentially.

[00:33:32.17] - Gregg Garner

You ever feel like that church sometimes, you know, like, I used to feel that when I was younger. Like, when they did, like, the benediction at the end, it made the grace of God. I'd be like, grow up that tradition. But then you get judged.

[00:33:46.91] - Jeff Sherrod

Like, when I go to Matthew Church and I do the apostles Creed, I'm.

[00:33:49.02] - Gregg Garner

Like, I'm pretty sure I read the Bible. He wasn't buried. He was put in the tomb. We're going to say buried just because that's our english translation of the Latin. Anyways, back to Shaun.

[00:34:01.95] - Shaun Galford

Yeah, but I mean, even historically, people are like, we don't even know what they were laughing at. It was so nonsensical and so on. Right. So they continued their thing and they really focus on the word of God, and they experience a lot of persecution. They do become forerunners to the Protestant Reformation, and they even still exist today as, like, a contrast society in Argentina. No way to Argentina. They have groups of them. They're still in Italy, but they're one that really prioritized the word of God, biblical education, it was just so.

[00:34:34.57] - Gregg Garner

This is a great example, too, of how light and darkness is our model. The mainstream dominant powers don't have a discernible rubric based upon the word of God. You can rule out a movement that passes the Gamaliel test. The Gamaliel test on the book of acts.

[00:34:55.84] - Shaun Galford

If God is with this, it's gonna keep going.

[00:34:58.46] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. And you're saying it's today, it's still in existence. In the name of Jesus.

[00:35:03.21] - Shaun Galford

In the name of Jesus, yeah, you.

[00:35:05.17] - Gregg Garner

Can'T argue with that. That's the Gamaliel test. Right. But these dominant leaders in the twelve hundreds. Good night. Right?

[00:35:11.75] - Shaun Galford

Yeah. 875, this is like the time of like Pope Innocent III and the fourth lateran council.

[00:35:18.44] - Gregg Garner

It just shows you that a society can even one that calls itself Christian, enter into the place of biblical literacy. Like, man, I want to talk about something right now which could be a little too politically controversial. Okay? So my disclaimer. And Jeff, you can edit this out if you want. I take no position with respect to who I'm about to talk about other than to observe what's happening. Okay, so I heard Trump's come out with a Bible.

[00:35:46.30] - Shaun Galford

Yeah, the Trump Bible.

[00:35:48.26] - Gregg Garner

Yeah, a Trump Bible. And it's King James.

[00:35:50.82] - Jeff Sherrod

No, it's not.

[00:35:51.82] - Gregg Garner

I think it's King James. It's a King James Bible and it's his Bible. And I don't know too much more about it, but I just. I'm thinking about Donald Trump promoting a Bible. With everything that's happening in the world right now and everything else. The one hand, I'm like, this is awesome. I want people to have the Bible. On the other hand, it's like, dude, are you sure King James is the best version for everybody with all this? And then, of course, people who have symbol and procedure, they're like, yeah, dude, that was good enough for Jesus. It's good enough for me. Where, like, those of us who are academics recognize how much stuff is made up in the King James Bible just because they didn't have transcripts.

[00:36:32.44] - Shaun Galford

What is going to be redacted? What is going to happen here? Is this going to be like a Jeffersonian Bible, Martha Bible?

[00:36:37.73] - Gregg Garner

I think it has some, like, strong national.

[00:36:39.86] - Jeff Sherrod

It's christian nationalism.

[00:36:41.15] - Gregg Garner

Yeah.

[00:36:41.44] - Jeff Sherrod

It's like when political forces adopt religious symbol and then they're like, hey, this is. And then we're just gonna confuse.

[00:36:49.32] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. So now it's like, it's not. He's a great man. Cause he's pushing the Bible and Mappa. He's making us pray again. I don't know Donald Trump at all, so I cannot judge him except for what I know about him and so can't judge him personally. But I can make observations about who he is politically, and he wants to be president again. One of the best ways to swing that vote is to just interject in your media campaign the symbols that make sense to people despite significance. But if you, like, listen to people who are, like, making comments about it, even some of their criticisms are interesting. You're promoting the Bible, but you've also been convicted of a counsel with respect to fraud connected to illicit behavior. And then, of course, it's like, well, it's not true. It didn't happen, which I can get. That does happen for real. Right. But at the same time, like, just the symbol for so many people, it now gives them enough evidence to side.

[00:37:53.80] - Shaun Galford

Right.

[00:37:54.44] - Gregg Garner

Because that's the power of symbol.

[00:37:56.07] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:37:56.38] - Gregg Garner

But it's good for kids. It's not great for adults and any, any adult thinkers just going, man, are we just, like, really in a place where, where, like, it's slim pickings and we got to pick the best out of what it is that's offered to us, which I don't know a better way to describe politics.

[00:38:14.09] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah.

[00:38:14.59] - Gregg Garner

But it's interesting, you know, power of.

[00:38:17.55] - Jeff Sherrod

Symbol has taken over what I think maybe even like, 15 years ago would have been a churched people, like, you know, people that have. A lot of these people have left churches. They're not going to churches, but they still say, like, now I'm a stronger christian than ever. You know, like, now I'm more into, you know, faith. But there's no, there's becoming less substance, more allegiance to political ideologies and political power as, like, because, you know, God's blessing it, obviously. Right. I don't know. You know, it's just, I think, yeah, it's. We can really deceive ourselves without education. There's so much to say on this topic.

[00:38:54.25] - Gregg Garner

Yeah, I had, like, the topic is it needs to be discussed. It needs to be talked about. And for you listeners out there, if, like, you feel like we've said something that was offensive or is worth canceling us over, like, have a conversation with us.

[00:39:12.48] - Jeff Sherrod

Yeah, please.

[00:39:13.55] - Gregg Garner

We're not, this is, we're not trying to be combative or we're not trying to just be edgy or youthfully racy.

[00:39:24.34] - Jeff Sherrod

Right.

[00:39:25.01] - Gregg Garner

We're legitimately seeking for the truth. Jesus said that it wouldn't be on this mountain or on that mountain. He told the samaritan woman, true worshipers would worship. They would worship in spirit and in truth. And so we do believe that it requires a certain level of spiritual capacity to be able to pursue the kind of truth that engages us in, like, that legitimate worship of God and for that community. In Jesus day, they were so hung up on the symbol of the temple on the Jerusalem mountain or the symbol of the well on the samaritan mountain that they missed the significance and the understanding that was connected to having a relationship with Jesus. Just like in the story where she could testify, he knows everything about me and that she has come to believe that he is the one. And that's the essence of what we hold, that Jesus is the one and that we can enter into a relationship with him where he knows us. And so we're just pursuing that. So the show is by no means political. And I know we talk about political things sometimes, but sometimes politics is merely historical when you're just reciting fact like something that's happened. And we don't want to ignore history just to be favorable to the potential we could be canceled. So that's my little, that's my little thing there to say. Otherwise, this is what education is, right? An academic environment allows for freedom of thought and conversation. Of course, it should be limited by reason and what's acceptable, but there should also be the opportunity for people to reflect and ask questions and sometimes not have full answers. But nonetheless, the pursuit is advancing you.

[00:41:15.17] - Jeff Sherrod

Absolutely. Great. Thanks so much, Shaun. Thanks for joining us today.

[00:41:19.07] - Shaun Galford

It's a lot of fun.

[00:41:19.82] - Gregg Garner

Do it again, Shaun, please.

[00:41:22.80] - Jeff Sherrod

Hey, for you guys out there, thanks so much for joining us today on college conversations. Please like and subscribe if you are on Spotify Apple Podcasts. We really do appreciate it when you guys subscribe. Also, if you're listening on those platforms, head over to YouTube and subscribe there as well. That helps us kind of know who's listening. It gives us a way of interacting with you guys as fans as well. If you do have comments or questions about this show, we love those. We would love to entertain them. So reach out to us. Our email for contacting us is in the show notes. Until then, see you guys next time.

[00:41:54.76] - Shaun Galford

Next time.