S2E37 - The New Priesthood? Navigating Therapy Culture
Summary: In this episode, Jeff Sherrod, Benjamin Reese, and Gregg Garner discuss therapy’s growing role in Christian culture. Once rarely mentioned in churches, therapy is now widely accepted. They explore its benefits, potential downsides like dependency, and whether therapists resemble modern-day priests. Reese questions this comparison, citing differences in marketing and confidentiality.
The discussion covers therapy’s rise post-COVID-19, its impact on Gen Z, and the need for discernment, biblical education, and trusted advisors. They also examine social media’s influence, therapist qualifications, and the importance of measurable outcomes and holistic health.
[00:00:06.40] - Jeff Sherrod
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to College Conversations. My name is Jeff Sherrod. Happy to be here with you guys. As always, I'm joined with my fellow professor Benjamin Reese and the president of the Institute for GOD, Mr. Gregg Garner. And today we're talking about therapy and therapy culture. When I was in church growing up, saying that someone was seeing a therapist was not commonly discussed. I think today even in churches, this is something that you hear a lot more people talk about openly and frequently the fact that they go to a therapist. While we recognize that therapy often plays a very pivotal role in people's emotional and mental health, there's a couple questions that we're talking about today. One is, what is the triggering point for when we say, all right, someone needs to be seeing a therapist? What are some things that would help. Help someone to know that they're at that point? And second of all, how do we evaluate the efficacy of therapy? What are you hoping to get at the end of this effort and what creates a successful time in the end? I think that you guys will find this both timely and very interesting as we get into the topics. Always happy that you guys are here with us for College Conversations. I hope you guys enjoy the show. Okay. There's an argument that goes along the lines of therapists have replaced the priesthood in society. What priests or clergy did and the necessary function they had in society has been. Yeah. Replaced by the. By therapists. Before we get into this argument, I'm just on its surface level, what's your. What's your gut reaction here?
[00:01:50.73] - Gregg Garner
My gut reaction was funny and I'm thankful I don't speak out my gut reaction. I appreciate the work of therapists. I do. I think that they perform a duty that when done well, can really help a person find a safe place to work through things that otherwise could either create elevated levels of shame or even to get a perspective from someone that's not immersed in their day to day so they don't have to see them again when it comes to the things that they're having to bring up, I think those are all really good things. However, to compare them to the priestly duties, people must not know what. Or maybe we're talking about people's perception of Catholic priests rather than like the Levitical priesthood. Yeah, maybe because one of the major contrasts of the Levitical priesthood to other ancient Near Eastern practitioners was silence. That that was like one of the things that they did. So when you brought your offering to the tabernacle in the wilderness, the officians were silent like they didn't say anything because the officiants and other religions were saying a lot of things. But then there's also the funny thing, like, I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't know. I have seen a therapist several times and I appreciate the work again that my therapist does. But I also pay 150 bucks a session to have that experience. And I know that if we were even talking about the Catholic Church, that did not need to happen. There was no pay there. And the therapist today, in order to get those people into their office and to get those rates, what you often see now is marketing associated with that. But the marketing comes in the form of like making you aware of something that you probably couldn't have known unless this doctor told you that was the case. And then you needed to now talk through it. So it's like, do you, do you jolt in the middle of the night when you sleep? This is something that likely our ancestors did because they slept in trees. But it could also be a result of you now having elevated levels of stress and that is depleting your sleep to the degree your resilience for the next day is, is going to lower performance. You're going to be foggy minded. This is something that your therapist can work through with you by addressing. And now you're like, oh my God, that's exactly me. I jolt and I need this therapy. Like the priesthood, that wasn't something, there was no marketing related to that. And then the priesthood, Levitical priesthood, those guys are gangster, man, because the restrictions on them were extreme and they got kind of fed up with it by the time you get to like the Book of Malachi. And they've definitely lost it when you're in Jesus time. But like these guys, they weren't allowed to be private business owners, to own land. They, they weren't even counted. Like in our day, we would think about citizenship as a path to having our voice heard in the world we live in. The Levites weren't counted amongst the census. Yeah, like, they were allowed to get married.
[00:05:29.79] - Benjamin Reese
I feel like that is worth pointing out.
[00:05:31.39] - Gregg Garner
Yes, yes, they, they were allowed to get married and have children, otherwise they couldn't continue the priesthood legacy which was through, maybe we'd call it nepotism today, but I don't know. I think I know too much about the priesthood to be able to. Analogously now, if you're saying they function in the capacity to give a safe space, much like a confessional in like those, like higher church structures and People are able to get counsel from them. I can, I can get that.
[00:06:07.73] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:06:08.23] - Gregg Garner
But I don't know, man. My gut reaction was funny.
[00:06:13.05] - Jeff Sherrod
Ben and I looked at an article called the Rise in Therapy Culture. And he also makes this argument about there's a correlation between. Now he was not thinking Levitical priesthood. I think he's just thinking maybe more broadly, clergy and people have had issues in the past and you had someone who was trained in the Bible that you could go to and talk to you about your issues.
[00:06:36.32] - Gregg Garner
Then why don't therapists today get a biblical education? Why are they getting a psychological education?
[00:06:42.30] - Jeff Sherrod
Because the biblical education is not required.
[00:06:44.62] - Gregg Garner
Right. So then how. How already the, the analogy. Right. Breaks down. Like the comparison.
[00:06:51.58] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:06:52.23] - Gregg Garner
Because clergy should have a biblical education.
[00:06:54.97] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:06:56.02] - Benjamin Reese
I think that like, so.
[00:06:57.31] - Gregg Garner
But I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you there. That bothers me.
[00:07:01.01] - Benjamin Reese
So maybe not like a comparison between the.
[00:07:03.52] - Gregg Garner
Because my therapist, she uses the Bible.
[00:07:05.86] - Benjamin Reese
Right.
[00:07:06.25] - Gregg Garner
And then she learned I learned the Bible and then she had to tell me, I'm not going to use the Bible anymore. I hope that's okay. She said, I will try to use some principles that I'm sure of. But she got a little wearied by. Every time she brought the Bible. I go, well, the context for that is this. And the actual word there isn't that. It's this word in the original language, you know.
[00:07:27.68] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:07:28.05] - Gregg Garner
And she just realized, oh, I don't have a BIM education. Let me do my thing. Which now comes from, you know, modern therapy. Science is still highly connected to guys like Freud.
[00:07:38.52] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:07:39.05] - Gregg Garner
Other things. Anyways. Anyways. Ah.
[00:07:41.48] - Benjamin Reese
So like, so with the analogy, I don't. The argument wasn't so much that they, they function in the same way.
[00:07:49.02] - Gregg Garner
Okay, all right.
[00:07:49.69] - Benjamin Reese
But maybe.
[00:07:50.37] - Gregg Garner
Fair.
[00:07:51.24] - Benjamin Reese
But maybe that when people now think about an, like having a problem, they'll.
[00:07:59.61] - Gregg Garner
Go to a therapist rather than their.
[00:08:01.49] - Benjamin Reese
Pastor, rather it's become maybe less of a, A substitute rather than a. Maybe the same function.
[00:08:08.56] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:08:08.94] - Gregg Garner
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I see that.
[00:08:11.00] - Jeff Sherrod
And, and he talks about it in a couple differences that they would do. I think three specifically. So he mentions that when you would go to a clergy. And I'm saying. Or pastoral staff, whatever we're saying. Right. Like someone that's going to help you with biblical education, that that person would direct you to a source of authority that's outside yourself. As to what sometimes happen in popular therapy, which is to look inside yourself. That's one. Another one is to. That you should adapt To. To a changing world around you. That's what the clergy says, is that you need to change as opposed to make your world as controllable as possible so that things don't hit you. And then number three, where a clergy would give you advice to say, you know, do these things, don't do these things. Those things correspond. But it is where someone might say sinful practices, those kind of things in clergy, we just say, stay away from people. Yeah.
[00:09:11.17] - Gregg Garner
Toxic.
[00:09:11.76] - Jeff Sherrod
The toxic people. And so that was some of the, like, comparisons.
[00:09:14.91] - Gregg Garner
Those are good comparisons. I like that. I like that part of the article. And it's helpful to know that the reference in the analogy is not with respect to the duties and responsibilities, but the perception of the congregants.
[00:09:28.67] - Benjamin Reese
Yeah.
[00:09:29.24] - Gregg Garner
And how they're using them. And that I would agree. I do see that today congregations are more likely to. To confide in a therapist than their pastoral team.
[00:09:40.00] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. And. And this is going like, you know, I think they say, like, since COVID 19. Since COVID like, one third of all Gen Z has gone to therapy, as opposed to 10% of boomers, 20% of Gen X. So it's, you know, this is on the rise. Right. Therapy. Therapy culture. So, yeah, I guess I'm interested in, like, even as we're thinking about this, like, what are we gaining with therapy culture? What are we losing? What are we losing with it? Uh, are we creating a system of people that are just like, I need the whole world to fit around me now, Gregg, I'm gonna say what you said, too. I think they also. Therapists do a great role and have an essay.
[00:10:18.87] - Benjamin Reese
I do think it's worth pointing out that, like, when you say therapy, it's not a homogenous.
[00:10:23.80] - Jeff Sherrod
This. Yeah, you're right.
[00:10:24.73] - Benjamin Reese
There is, like, a very, like, a wide variety of kinds of therapy and quality of therapy. Like, not too long ago, I was in, like, a language exchange with somebody. I'm learning Spanish, so I was like, talking to them in Spanish.
[00:10:36.84] - Gregg Garner
And by learning Spanish, he means learning really advanced Spanish.
[00:10:40.42] - Benjamin Reese
Talking about. We're talking about things, you know, trying to up my vocabulary. And so I was asking, you know, why are you interested in learning English? Because it's a language exchange. It's like, well, my job is giving therapy online, like, with one of these sort of like, you've probably seen them advertised. I don't want to say company names or.
[00:11:03.25] - Gregg Garner
Yeah, yeah, no problem.
[00:11:04.34] - Benjamin Reese
But you've probably seen them advertised where you get connected with like a zoom.
[00:11:08.49] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:11:09.17] - Benjamin Reese
Voicemail and. Or like a chat thing where they kind of chat to you. And she was like, I'm trying to. That's my job. So she was already acting in the capacity of a therapist.
[00:11:21.07] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:11:21.80] - Benjamin Reese
But then when we were talking English, I was like, your English is not great.
[00:11:26.24] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:11:26.59] - Benjamin Reese
You know, but now they're like for English speakers. For English speakers. For Americans who would then sign up for this service to get like a cheap. But they're just exporting it to another country.
[00:11:37.37] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:11:37.85] - Benjamin Reese
And having somebody who doesn't isn't fully. I mean, in therapy, it's a game of language. You would think you would need a pretty advanced level.
[00:11:46.48] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:11:47.01] - Benjamin Reese
But in any case.
[00:11:47.86] - Gregg Garner
But also educational qualifications are different.
[00:11:50.69] - Benjamin Reese
Different in different countries. So that's how they can kind of. But in any case, there's just a wide variety of different types of therapy. And I think when people, sometimes they think that all. It's all one thing.
[00:12:02.75] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah, you're right. This is not just like, just someone sitting on a couch. Like people use horses. There's people that are doing like physical type therapies. That's not quite what we're talking about here. Yeah. I think we're talking about maybe if I could characterize it as someone is dealing with a mental health situation and they go to kind of a one on one therapist to talk about their issues and to get strategies for how to do better. Maybe that's what. Yeah, yeah.
[00:12:30.80] - Gregg Garner
That's the way I understood you.
[00:12:32.58] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. So about therapy culture, what do you think about with the, with the rise? I think there is a rising awareness of mental health issues. Yeah, right. I, I've not met anyone that says that mental health issues don't matter or we people shouldn't have mental health. I think that's we all on the same page with air. But do you think that there is sometimes like an overly fixation on mental health where it's like, you know, if I say, Gregg, are you doing okay mentally? And you're like, I mean, I was, but now I'm reevaluating it. You know what? I actually do have problems. What do you think? Are we too fixated on.
[00:13:07.24] - Gregg Garner
Yeah, I think there's a danger when we compartmentalize who we are, thinking that if you address one part and not the other parts, that you're going to be healthy. You know, like sometimes your mental health problem is just that you're not getting enough time in the sun. Like it could be that simple.
[00:13:25.72] - Jeff Sherrod
Right?
[00:13:26.00] - Benjamin Reese
Yeah.
[00:13:27.12] - Gregg Garner
So I don't, I don't think it's healthy for us to dissect who we are. And then treat who we are compartmentalized. I think there should be a holistic approach which would further my case for having somebody in your life that knows who you are and is able to evaluate the whole of who you are and make recommendations for the whole of you are like, I think, I think a more integrative doctor or provider, whether they're a nurse practitioner or not, who sees you for health, also is looking at your mental state because they're holistic in their approach. Where I think on the other side, therapists, sometimes they'll highlight like, yeah, it'd be good for you to start a, an exercise routine so you have something consistent where you have some control going back to that control in your life. And it's a me time and you can strengthen yourself. So I think they sometimes are trying to appeal to those aspects of who we are. But I don't know, man, your topics you keep bringing up everything always brings me back to learning God's word. Like the person who learns God's word is going to be equipped to even handle therapy. No therapist is perfect. No doctor is perfect. Nobody out there knows exactly what they're guessing about. And you have to have a knowledge of God's word to the degree you can again discern what it is you should be listening to versus what it is you shouldn't. A therapist has a lot of power.
[00:14:57.67] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah, I had.
[00:14:58.24] - Gregg Garner
The story of. This is a true story. Somebody who was an employee went to go see a therapist. And in seeing a therapist, this was like premarital. And in going into that scenario, the therapist that they saw gave them some advice that was challenging to, to the recipient in therapy. And they, they trusted, they wanted to trust the therapist. So they implemented it and it created a lot of problems. They ended up changing therapists because what they found out was that therapists had a personal bias. Having known the other person that this, this person was in a relationship with did not let them know that.
[00:15:59.41] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. They should have like recused themselves. Yeah, but.
[00:16:02.59] - Gregg Garner
Yeah, yeah, but they didn't. And they use their authority to get this person to enact changes that damage their relationship. Well, when the person left and went to another therapist, they helped them to unpack that whole thing. But this is not to say that always happens. It is to remind us whether they're a pastor or a therapist, a mentor, a doctor, all of us have problems and none of us are God and none of us have the ability to speak so clearly into anybody's life. So we have to have always. I try to teach Our students, an ear to the person you're listening to and an ear to God. And that ear to God is what guards your heart. It's. It's the safeguard for what it is that you're. You're listening to. And. And that's why I have appreciated and stuck with my same therapist for years now, because I know how to do that. And she's effectively humble. She knows her job and her tools, and she makes recommendations, and I can assert myself. I've had to say, I think you're breaching a boundary there, and I don't want to go in that direction. And she goes, I respect that. No problem. But I think there are some people, especially Gen Z, being that young, who may not know how to do that. Next thing you know, a therapist hears something that triggers their own personal life, and then they go, well, that sounds like a toxic trap.
[00:17:36.31] - Jeff Sherrod
Right?
[00:17:36.61] - Gregg Garner
Right now the Gen Z kid's like, what? A toxic trap? And they're like, if you have friends around you that always want to know where you're at and what you're doing, that infringes on your privacy. But what the therapist is doing is speaking towards their own personal experience that they had to get out of, and now they're impassioned about it. So the Gen Z kid feels the impassioned is like, oh, my gosh. Yeah, that's right. My privacy should not be intruded upon. And next thing you know, their friends, like, we're just really concerned for you. And they're going, oh, my gosh. They go back to therapist. They just keep coming and talking to me, and they're like, you've got to get out. You got to get out of there. And I just think that happens way too often.
[00:18:17.93] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. I listened to a podcast recently. They were talking about something like this. This was a. He was a therapist, and he works with parents and grandparents who have estranged adult children. And this is a. This is like a growing trend. Right. Where it's like more and more adult children are estranged from. Estranged from their parents. And one. And not the only reasons, but one of the reasons he says is he thinks it's in part to bad therapy. And he's saying this as a therapist.
[00:18:45.98] - Gregg Garner
Sure.
[00:18:46.55] - Jeff Sherrod
Because he's like, you know, like. And he tries to. He has some things he tries to have his clients do. He's like, I can at least teach you some of the language that you'll. They'll learn words like toxic and narcissistic and triggered.
[00:19:02.11] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. And a lot of these guys are Getting their education from Instagram University as well. Igu.
[00:19:07.70] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:19:08.06] - Gregg Garner
So it's like, these are the terms.
[00:19:10.48] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. These are flying around everywhere. Yeah. So. So he was just talking about, like, you know, they're more often than not. More often than not. But at least in a growing number of times, he's finding therapists that are just taking one. Taking the word of a client. Like, they'll describe their parent and then they'll say, who? That sounds super narcissistic. But you haven't talked to the parent. You're getting one side of this.
[00:19:32.26] - Gregg Garner
So you don't. You know nothing.
[00:19:33.78] - Jeff Sherrod
You know nothing about this. And then it's like this massive decision where it's like, cut them out of your life. Massive decision that can, you know. And he was talking to some of his. He did a retreat for. And this was a sad part, but someone was saying, like, you know, since my son and I haven't seen my grandchildren in years, and I just have feelings of suicide. And he just had people in the room say, have you guys ever felt that way? And it was 100% of the room. I felt like it was just. For a parent to be estranged from a child is so traumatic. And he's like, the power that therapists have to. To do something that is a massive decision.
[00:20:07.41] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:20:07.76] - Jeff Sherrod
And he's like, I just hope people both know what they're doing, and I hope people know how to hear it.
[00:20:13.74] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. I. I think that is a great example of the kind of power that we don't want anyone to have in our lives. Yeah, nobody. But it's hard. I'm an authority figure, and I have people who want to trust me because they even know me and they love me. I also have positions that give me authority, that also require people to have to listen to what I have to say. And as careful as I want to be with it, I'm going to fall short. Not that I'm going to be some, like, you know, maniacal person out there yelling at everyone all the time, but I could say things that get heard in a way I didn't intend it even. So someone could be asking a question such as, hey, do you think students should go home for the holidays to visit their families? And I say, well, just depends, like, what plans do you guys have? Do you have to travel a long distance? Is this going to be a wise decision for you financially? What about school? Are you taking a winter term? Is this going to be something maybe that you can ask your parents to come out and meet with you? Because they got a lot more time on their hands, and I just give them a bunch of scenarios to think through. Well, the. All they hear when they walk out of there potentially is, no, it's too much of a hassle. It's better just to stay at school. And now they're not going home to see their parents. And now they see their therapist. And the therapist is like, wow, your professor told you to not go home to your parents. What's the problem? But it could take any number of terms because now the student is like, well, yeah, but that's because I was telling them that we've been having a lot of issues at home. My parents, they just keep buying all my tickets in advance. I keep telling them not to do that. Now therapist is like, well, I kind of agree with your professor now, but I never even asserted anything. But now I'm getting agreed with. And now the therapist is again working with two fictional parties with a very real person who's gonna have to very realistically work with these folks. So I like the second part of what the guy said. Like, yes, I also hope therapists know what they're doing. I hope CEOs and professors and pastors, I hope they all know what they're doing. The humble admission is we know in part, we tell the truth in part, we see through a glass dimly. Right. That's a sobering reminder. We all are going to fall short. But for the person listening to have the ability to discern what's being said seems to be the qualitative component to that balancing equation. And how does that happen? Biblical education. This is a great conversation because I was actually. This is true. Just yesterday, I was talking to my daughter and we were actually talking about therapy. My oldest, she's 21, and I was so refreshed listening to her talk about it because she says that her therapist is a Christian and her therapist tries to use Scripture, and she says she's able to hear her even in the times when she knows the way she's using scripture isn't. Isn't correct. Like, because she's learned the Bible. Right, Right. So she's like, oh, that's. That's off. But she. She's trying to listen to what the heart of the communication.
[00:23:28.99] - Jeff Sherrod
Yes, that's.
[00:23:29.98] - Gregg Garner
And then. And then there are times where when she's listening to her therapist and she gives a piece of advice. She said she's even walked away and gone. I didn't really pay attention to that because I think it came from, like, a personal issue. She's having, you know, like she's, she has some discernment. Yeah, she has some discernment that made me feel much more comfortable about her being in that room. But what happens when you have a person going into that room who's, who's just like never really opened up to anybody before, is about to spill their guts? That creates a bond in and of itself.
[00:23:57.82] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:23:58.53] - Gregg Garner
You come back to the room and you're like accepted. You forget that you're paying to be accepted. Like all of that goes out the window. You're now just sitting there feeling like you're actually listened to, yet you're paid attention to. They're given an opportunity to talk. There's this other study, I think it was done in, gosh, it was either Nigeria or it was, I think believe it was a West African country. But the therapy culture was starting to infiltrate social media out there and they, they have a shortage of qualified therapists. Right. So this one guy gets the idea based upon his experience with his grandma, that in the village that's the way it is in the village. Everybody talks to the elders. So then he put together a team of grandparents, retired grandparents, and then he just scheduled appointments for the young people to sit with the grandparent, figure once a week for an hour and just chat. Yeah, all of them got better, all of them got healthier.
[00:24:59.89] - Jeff Sherrod
I love that.
[00:25:00.57] - Gregg Garner
And even the grandparents felt better because they had something to offer and something to give. So sometimes I think like before we want to psychoanalyze somebody and point out to them the, the, the problems rooted in their life through either someone else's depravity or, or just like the confusing experience of being a, growing up as a human being. Like sometimes people just need to talk.
[00:25:30.25] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:25:30.71] - Gregg Garner
They just need to be heard and they need to get it out and they share. And a grandparent's great for that because at that point their energy is not like the energy of a young person or even a middle aged person still trying to be something or get somewhere. Actually was having another conversation. It's actually a really great conversation with another college president yesterday. And they're, they're, they're new to the helm, just started a few years ago and well, they had been a president, another college before that, but on their own. And I think we're probably around the same age. But you know, I had to let them know I've been doing this for, I've been doing this for almost 30 years now and I haven't really done anything else.
[00:26:11.99] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:26:13.11] - Gregg Garner
And they asked me the question they said, so you know, what are, are you envisioning that this is going to go this and do that and do you imagine. And they were giving me really big picture, broad ambitions for, for things to consider. And in that moment, as I was listening, I just felt my energy go down and, and I was able to identify in myself, ah, this is different. This is real different. Fifteen years ago, this conversation, I would have felt my energy go up and it reminded me. And I even shared this with them in our conversation of last year. My, my son, who is now freshman in college but was a senior, they, they made a theme for their senior trip and it was Made for More was their theme. And while we were on the trip, my wife leans over to me and she goes, she goes, you know, maybe, maybe, maybe I'm Made for Less. And we just started laughing about it and, and it was just a few days ago that I actually went to her and I said, I think I, I think I really get the Made for Less thing at this stage in our life. Because at this stage in our life, like all of the options, like I'm about 50 years old, all of the options that were available to me in my twenties have closed like a lot of them and I've traveled a lot of those paths and I've done a lot of those things. And like I'm at a stage in life where I don't feel the need to compete with anybody or, or, or to put something out there so I could be known for. I just don't have that, where I remember feeling that.
[00:27:49.75] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:27:50.00] - Gregg Garner
And feeling it very strong and maybe there's a little bit in there, but it's focused, you know. So like for me, the Made for Less has become a fun way of thinking about. I'm at a stage in life where, where I'm not exploring anymore. I can concentrate. I'm. Things aren't open ended for me.
[00:28:08.70] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:28:09.01] - Gregg Garner
Like it's time to finish the race with some concentration in the same way I started it. Let's finish it along those lines.
[00:28:15.15] - Jeff Sherrod
But you're happy for the high schoolers to be made for more.
[00:28:17.29] - Gregg Garner
Very happy for them, Very happy for them to be for. I bring all that up because I think when it comes to the grandparents doing the talk therapy, their energy and where they're at and their focus, just if they, if they're in a good place can inherently make them a little less selfish than the rest of us, a little less self absorbed. They, they now can hear and, and have enough time themselves to have Thought through the stages of life.
[00:28:41.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:28:41.82] - Gregg Garner
And where they're at. And they can just, they can just let them talk. Like I, I listen to my, my oldest son and I are, are so much alike. It's scary. And I listen to him talk and there's about a hundred interjections I want to make and I don't make them and I don't feel like I want to make them. I don't do the thing where you go because you're trying to get in there. I just sit back and I just listen because on the one hand I don't want to take away from him the necessary experience to own the growth that's going to happen. At the same time I am thinking about my own journey because he sounds so similar to me and how all of that happened. But I also just don't feel the energy to do what I would have done in my 20 if I was 28, counseling an 18 year old. I, I would have had a different kind of energy. So I, I am also cautioned about the age of therapists.
[00:29:39.58] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:29:40.22] - Gregg Garner
And, and like what it is that they're actually bringing to the table and experience. Like I know marriage counselors who aren't married. Like that's an.
[00:29:53.08] - Jeff Sherrod
Feels a little strange.
[00:29:54.34] - Gregg Garner
It's crazy. It's not feeling strange. That's crazy. But at the same time we're looking for these guides in life who. Therapists. The, another difference between therapists and I think a clergy member is the clergy member should be. And I think this is in the guy's point, pointing you to someone else, pointing you to Christ.
[00:30:13.35] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:30:13.80] - Gregg Garner
Where a therapist is either going to turn you inside or make you dependent on them. I immediately called my therapist. I was listening to this song by a kid that I followed for years and he's just going through a lot and he lets everybody know about what he's going through on Instagram. Right. He's got like a million followers. And of course they're always just like, love you, love you, love you. They don't know him and he feels it. But, but there's. He has a stage name that's, that's. His family is from Europe and so he, he has like his stage name which is connected to that. Anyways. His own name is nothing like you would think it would be compared to a stage name. So he wrote this song to his real name and he's talking to himself and in the song he's asking if he's happy. But then he also says, hey, I know the pills you take. And I know that as soon as you get home, you call your therapist immediately. But then he's like, so, are you happy? And then he has the other personality of his person go, yeah, for sure. But it's a really. I feel for the guy listening to the song. But I do think he captures a lot of Gen Z's sentiment about, like, health. But the fact that he's like, as soon as I get home, I'm calling my therapist. That's, like, part of their experience. Like, that dependency. Like, if I'm teaching God's word effectively and if I'm pastoring effectively, I'm gonna push you towards Jesus. I'm gonna push you towards prayer. I'm gonna push you towards connecting with God. And I don't have the desire to make you codependent on me, but I have seen that. And I think that's something to be caution of. But I do think a younger therapist is more likely to do that than an.
[00:31:58.70] - Jeff Sherrod
I think that. I think there's something. There's something to that.
[00:32:00.56] - Gregg Garner
And I think it's the same thing, though, within clergy and anything else.
[00:32:03.34] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. Age matters.
[00:32:04.54] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. And I don't think people got. I didn't understand that when I was younger, and I think in, like, my 20s and 30s, when I would talk to people, I would give them forms of my thoughts. It wasn't intended to be advice. It wasn't counsel. It wasn't direction. It was just me sharing where I was at, what I was learning. Now, I didn't explicitly say that, and unfortunately, I was also saying it from a position of authority. And. And even there were times where I would tell people, you guys know what I tell when I preach? I'll say stuff like, you know, 25 of what I'm saying is wrong.
[00:32:39.38] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:32:39.82] - Gregg Garner
I don't know what. What it is or I tell you. So there you go. That's. That's a dilemma we're in. So I. But at the same time, because of just the. The circumstance, I think people might have heard me working through things out loud and thinking through it as, like, guidance. And that's. That's part of the unfortunate thing about having, like, a young community.
[00:33:07.61] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:33:08.02] - Gregg Garner
And we. When we were young, I know the. The times of prayer and talking to folks, it came. We came to realize, like, a lot of us are gonna have to grow into our own older people. And, you know, that was, like, 30 years ago, feeling all of that. But having older people around is so good and so helpful and so healthy. But what I've noticed And this is where things needed to change is that if you bring older people around into a biblically literate community, older people who don't know the Bible feel like they don't know how to talk to those young people because the authority of the Bible trumps their own sense of experience and what they have to say. So it kind of mutes them, which is unfortunate. So then you got to equip the older people with the knowledge of the Bible. But then they have to work and unpack so much baggage for them over the years. Like, I'm this old, and how do I not know this? And how did I not see that before? This is hard. So now it's going into them. It's just tough. You know how all of this would have been cured? Biblical education. Churches would have done their jobs if we would create Christian schools for kids K through 12, of which you taught the Bible. You actually taught it. Now you can't teach it the way you're going to teach it in college, but you taught it in such a way it got them ready for college. Then every kid, just like the Mormons do, just like Israel does, we put them in the Bible school and they learn the Bible. None of that would be an issue. We'd all go, you know what? Like, we can have therapists in their twenties, but here are the restrictions on how they offer guidance. Here's what they do in their 30s. Here are the restrictions in their 50s or 40s. Here, the 60s, 50s, 60s, free for all you got that we'd be able to do those kinds of things because we would all share the value that we learn from Scripture. We know that the elderly have something wonderful to offer us in terms of guidance. The Levitical law requires us to defer to them, that we may find ourselves with speed and we might find that they're. They're so slow. Like, we want to get them out of the way. But, like, the Scripture teaches us to defer.
[00:35:16.40] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:35:16.90] - Gregg Garner
And that wisdom only comes through Scripture. Like, when you. When you look at our society where, like, the. The way that we promote youth in and catapult them into celebrity so they become role models is insane.
[00:35:32.57] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:35:32.94] - Benjamin Reese
Yeah.
[00:35:33.40] - Gregg Garner
You know, Eminem, he has a song that. He talks about this, and he uses Aerosmith's backing track from Dream on, and he uses that as a sample. And he goes into it and he just talks about how he went from nothing and then he became this mega star to having anything he wanted. And he said, this has been the story of him and a lot of Young people who came into the rap game. And he's like, what did you guys expect from us? Like, you thought you were going to create role models, right? Like, we didn't learn anything. We just got a lot of influence and power. And now, you know, you, you've got these kids who are beat up by their dads or ignored by their moms and they're looking for guidance and guess who they're listening to? 20 somethings who just have a lot of money and no accountability.
[00:36:21.42] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:36:21.80] - Gregg Garner
What? What? Maybe it's your guys's problem. He was like, well, he, you know, at around that era, he wrote a song that, man, if you listen to it, it gives you chills just thinking about a son talking this way to his mother. Like, like there's this one line where it's. The song's called Clean Out My Closet. And he, he has this one line where he says, you know, you should see my daughter. She's beautiful. But you know what? You're never gonna see her. She won't even be at your funeral. Like, he like, hits all the hard points. But then here's the thing. Just like Augustine's Confessions, everyone reads it and no one reads what, what's he call it? Re. Re. Redactions. Yeah, redactions. No one reads the book Redactions in the same way nobody listened to Eminem's 20 Years later album where like he redacted cleaning out my closet and he literally is like saying sorry to his mom and he's like reminiscing the last time she drove out of his driveway in her like cheap car that he. From his mansion. Yeah, and like how he, he hates himself for how he let that happen. This is a mature guy. Now talking. Can you imagine Getting therapy from 5 year old Eminem versus therapy from 55 year old Eminem. You know it's going to be different, right? Right, it's gonna be different. But in our culture we don't even care about it. But Christians should. Yeah, but Christians don't because they're immersed in the culture rather than immersed in scripture. So this, this therapy thing here, I agree with. Like, even when you highlight that therapists are not homogenous, but there's a variety of them. Like, I think that that is a truth that expands beyond therapy because we offer therapy to each other. I think it's important to recognize that therapy should not be isolated to the acts of the professionals. But therapy is happening. When you open up Instagram and you go through that, it's speaking to you. And it is giving you some sense of direction, some sense of identity, like you are, you are experiencing the IG therapist at that point.
[00:38:23.76] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:38:24.46] - Gregg Garner
So become conscious of who is speaking into your life, what they're about, and then make a therapist accountable to that and make the, like, ask questions, use scripture. If you're a Christian and you're seeing a non Christian therapist, that's a problem because you cannot assert the authority of the word of God in the conversation. In fact, the word of God might be, for a secular therapist, your very problem.
[00:38:49.51] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. Yeah. Move away from this. Yeah, I want to maybe to finish this conversation. I just want to ask about thresholds. So, like, you know, when I did therapy when I was in my 20s and I told nobody because I would, I didn't want anyone to think that I had major problems because I saw a therapist. Now I hear every. Not every, but I hear it's common for people. It's very common to say that they.
[00:39:11.67] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. Like, even when I brought it up earlier, I felt a little. Because of our culture, you know, growing up, I felt a little like embarrassed, but I was like, nah, we're past that.
[00:39:17.86] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah, we're past that. We're past that. So I think that when you're talking to people and outside of the specialized forms of therapy, you know, where it's like extreme PTSD or outside those things, like where we're just saying, like, you know, you're a product of a culture and you grew up, now you have some things you're working through. What do you think is a threshold? If you're talking to someone, someone's like, I think I should go to therapy. What would you say would be something.
[00:39:42.48] - Gregg Garner
That would trigger, I think, I think very specific things. A trauma died, an inciting incident that created some form of trauma. Go see a therapist. Because that's very specific and it's recent and they say that I think it's within six weeks of an inciting incident. It's easiest to work through the trauma. So you kind of want to do that with some kind of expediency. And what I mean by that is like a loved one dies, a disease onslaughts and negatively impacts your family, a financial crisis, like those kinds of things.
[00:40:14.78] - Jeff Sherrod
Do you encourage people to term it in those situations, like, you know, go for two months?
[00:40:20.61] - Gregg Garner
I encourage them to ask the therapist at the outset, how long is this going to take? Okay, I am. This is opinion. I speak by permission.
[00:40:29.40] - Jeff Sherrod
Yes, right, okay.
[00:40:30.61] - Gregg Garner
But I never go to an open ended anything because I don't know how to Measure effectiveness. So, like, if I go to the chiropractor, I want to know, okay, you want me to come in? I just feel like this, what we're going to work on the subluxation for the next 60 years. Like, yeah, what are we doing? What is the goal? And the chiropractor that I go to, I think you guys go down too. He's great. Because there, there came a time where he's like, I don't think you need to see me as much anymore. Take a break. And, and that break turned into years.
[00:41:02.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:41:02.94] - Gregg Garner
And. But then I was like, oh, I gotta go back. And he's like, why don't you come in? Let's just see the next four weeks, see how you're doing. Yeah, those terms help. I think therapists should do the same. I think clergy, biblical counselors should all do the same. Because sometimes you're not even the right fit for that person. Like, I've had situations as a pastor where someone wants to come and talk to me about things and they should be talking to an older woman. Like, that's what should be happening in the moment. And I want to have the freedom to say, hey, listen, I totally care about what you're saying right now. I love you, but where you're going with it. I'm not the right person to talk to about this. So I even think like, that the person in that position has to understand boundaries.
[00:41:42.46] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:41:43.17] - Gregg Garner
But that's harder when you're getting paid, isn't it?
[00:41:44.98] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah, it's your. It's how you make a job.
[00:41:46.61] - Gregg Garner
It's harder when you're getting paid. So these things are. Are challenging, but we have to work through them.
[00:41:53.98] - Jeff Sherrod
So you. So you mentioned trauma would be something.
[00:41:56.82] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. To go toward or, or maybe if there's a high level of shame and you want to. You don't want to talk to somebody that. But I think that also needs termed. That needs termed. I don't think you need to definitely go to that person. And as soon as that person starts infringing on your situation, like, like the kind of therapy that gives advice. I think all advice has to come from the word of God, which is the lamp to the feet and light to the path. If you're getting advice that's outside of that, that advice should be a tool. A tool to contend with or an instrument used to actually promote the healing. So there's like internal family therapies, there's emdr, there's cognitive behavioral therapy. You've got all these different ways of treating things. Net brain spotting. Right. Like all of this stuff are tools that should be implemented. And I appreciate those practitioners a little more because they're not going to give me advice about my life. Which I'm going to give you a one sided perspective on.
[00:43:04.19] - Benjamin Reese
Right.
[00:43:05.42] - Gregg Garner
That's dangerous, man.
[00:43:06.76] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:43:07.15] - Gregg Garner
Like think about, think about someone that you really love going into a session talking about you and then that stranger now giving that person you love advice about how to deal with you.
[00:43:17.82] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:43:18.32] - Gregg Garner
Like just do some emdr, bro, let me process this thing. And then you. And. But some people get irritated by that because they're like I wanted them to do something well, understand the physiology of what's. And the neurology of what's taking place. But some people again need talk therapy. But I think talk therapy is best done with like a grandparent or like some somebody that you, you that really knows how to listen. And I think clergy does really great with that. And that stands in the long tradition of clergy clerical counseling.
[00:43:49.57] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:43:49.96] - Gregg Garner
Because it, you're often, you're advised to just be quiet. And then what advice do you give? Scripture.
[00:43:54.53] - Jeff Sherrod
That's right. Yeah.
[00:43:55.51] - Gregg Garner
And, and that's not your word. That's God's word.
[00:43:57.88] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:43:58.30] - Gregg Garner
That's much better than why that sounds like a narcissist you're dealing with. That's a toxic situation. Like I'm afraid for your kids.
[00:44:05.15] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:44:05.82] - Gregg Garner
These are things therapists say they're gaslighting you.
[00:44:08.17] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah, yeah.
[00:44:09.92] - Gregg Garner
And I think that that's just terrible. So I think another thing is if there's an onsliding trauma, but if you have a need a sense of anonymity to go into something you also want it termed. But, but I would prefer those types of therapies that aren't open ended and that actually are supposed to produce some measurable result. If you're not getting better, go to another therapist.
[00:44:29.32] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:44:29.71] - Gregg Garner
Stop just going like find out if they say this, we, this. Let's evaluate in six weeks. If in six weeks you haven't improved in some way, then go with someone else. Figure it out. And then also know what you're trying to, to change.
[00:44:43.63] - Jeff Sherrod
Like if you have a goal. Yeah.
[00:44:45.61] - Gregg Garner
Here's another thing. Like so there is this period of a few years where I would just find myself. It's just like kind of emotionally swing. And I'd be very passionate about even something that was small and I'd be like gosh. And I would feel it as it was happening and I could tell that people around me who love me and trust me were Kind of dealing with it, but I didn't like how it's coming out. So at the time, I was seeing a therapist. I shared with them. And so we started doing, like, she tried to give me a couple tools, and they weren't working. Well, turns out that this is a symptom called thyroid storms, which is physical. And my hormones were getting imbalanced in such a way that I was swinging. And it's just what it is. You storm. You turn into a storm and you get really aggressive. And I feel bad for my kids during that year because even being able to tell them, because I think you guys know my story, it culminated in cancer. But I was like, to look back and tell my kids, hey, those were dad's thyroid storms. On the one hand, the responsible part of me is like, that's an excuse. But on the other hand, the rational part of me is like, that was legitimate, man. So sometimes the things that people seek therapy for have less to do with mental health and sometimes has very much to do with physical health.
[00:46:11.92] - Jeff Sherrod
And this is that advice even for integrative.
[00:46:13.84] - Gregg Garner
Integrative health.
[00:46:14.65] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:46:14.88] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:46:15.26] - Jeff Sherrod
Because we're not divided.
[00:46:16.42] - Gregg Garner
Yeah, we're not. We're not. But you know, what does that. The Bible. The Bible does that. The Bible will never allow you to compartmentalize yourself and the Bible. The Bible is the best kind of therapy anybody could get. And to have a person who teaches you the Bible and shares the Bible with you, it's empowering. Helps you to make a decision about who you want to be in the life you want to live. But, like, even. Even the. Like, the physical things that emerge, those are really hard, and those feel very out of control. You definitely want somebody to be able to help you who knows something. And even though we call them doctors as psychologists, they're focusing on behavior in the mind.
[00:46:57.26] - Jeff Sherrod
Man, this has been great. I think that this is helpful for students. I love the refrain, right? Like, if you're listening to this and you're looking for some trick to be healthy, that's outside of the way that God's prescribed this, you're just going to keep looking. There's no magic that's just going to suddenly make you the kind of person that you want to be. It's always been, do the work of learning God's word and choose to obey. So I appreciate that. Focus on this. Thanks for joining us in this episode of College Conversations. See you guys next time. Thanks for joining us on College Conversations. Hope you guys enjoyed the show. As always, it means the world to us. When you, like, subscribe, you tell your friends, friends and your loved ones about this show. If you haven't yet, head over to Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcast and subscribe to it. You'll be notified anytime a new episode comes out. Also, head over to YouTube and subscribe to our channel. Let other people know about the work that we're doing. As always, let us know about any comments that you have, things that you want to talk about, things that you appreciate. We really do appreciate hearing from the audience. Till next next time, we'll see you guys on College Conversations.