S3E1 - Gen Z is Leaving the Church — Why Are They Walking Away?
Summary: This College Conversations podcast episode explores the reasons behind young people leaving the church. Institute students Elijah Lovelace and Brooke Vavold engage in a discussion centering on Barna Group research highlighting a significant decline in Christian identification among Gen Z, particularly among women. Guests share personal experiences of feeling unseen and undervalued in large churches prioritizing numerical growth over genuine relationships and mentorship. The conversation touches upon the impact of gender inequality, the "Church Too" movement, generational differences in understanding, and the role of church culture in fostering or hindering faith. Ultimately, the episode emphasizes the need for churches to prioritize authentic community, meaningful mentorship, and genuine care for their members, particularly young people, to combat the growing trend of disaffiliation.
[00:00:05.59] - Jeff Sherrod
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to College Conversations. My name is Jeff Sherrod. I'm joined in this episode by the founder and the president of the Institute for God, Mr. Gregg Garner. We also have a couple college students with us here as well. And that's gonna be something that we're doing different really for this whole season. This episode kicks off season three of College Conversations. And in each episode we're gonna hear from some of the students at the Institute for GOD talk about their experience here, but also looks like for them to be Christian witnesses in a wider society, some of the background that they had coming out of their particular home church, or their cultural background. I'm excited for you guys to hear some of these interest stories like, and really get to know some of the students here at the Institute. In this episode, we're talking about some of the reasons that young people leave churches and why they might not come back. And we're going to hear from a couple students about their experiencing, their experiences in church and also what biblical education has done to help them reframe even some of their experiences. I think you guys are going to really enjoy this episode. Have a great time listening to College Conversations. All right, so yeah, today we are talking about the title of this is does the Church Care why Young People are Walking Away. We do have two guests on today's episode. Really happy you guys could be here with us today. Elijah Lovelace, Brooke Vavold, Maybe just to kind of get us situated to who you guys are. Tell us what year you are at the institute. You guys are both students at the Institute for GOD. Tell us what year you are and then maybe where you're from. And then because we are talking about church, maybe just a real quick blurb about your church background and. And what that look like.
[00:01:41.54] - Brooke Vavold
Sounds good.
[00:01:42.03] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:01:43.23] - Brooke Vavold
I am Brooke. I am a junior here at the Institute for GOD and my church background is kind of all over the place. I went to about eight different churches before coming here and going to the Church of GOD. And then where I'm from, I just say Tennessee for the most part because I kind of moved all around Tennessee growing up too.
[00:02:03.56] - Gregg Garner
So.
[00:02:03.75] - Jeff Sherrod
So nice. I'm excited to hear from Brooke. We were having like some pre podcast conversations and words like trapeze artist came up. So yeah, she has some. Some variated experiences. Elijah.
[00:02:13.96] - Elijah Lovelace
My name is Elijah and I am from St. Louis, Missouri. I grew up in a Baptist church for about the first eight years of my life and then we shifted from that to a non denominational church in St. Louis, Missouri.
[00:02:26.71] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah, cool. So, yeah, I'm just gonna. I thought just to kind of situate us into where we are for this podcast. Just kind of helping people get a sense of this question, like why are young people walking away? So looking at some research about. Also trying to explain this before we even go to your guys personal experiences. And look at this. George Barna, for years ago, and David Kinnaman, they've kind of talked about this language. They've talked about four different groups of people that interact with church. One they call practicing Christians, which the way they define practicing Christians is they have to identify as a Christian, they have to consider their faith important, and they have to attend church once a month. So that's their definition of a practicing Christian, a nominal Christian who they call the sums. People who go to church like twice a year and they do identify as a Christian. The nuns, the people who don't identify with any religious affiliation. So this could be atheist or agnostic.
[00:03:20.75] - Gregg Garner
So somes was s o m e.
[00:03:22.50] - Jeff Sherrod
S o m e. Like some. Yeah, well go to church. Some, I think is what they're getting at.
[00:03:27.15] - Gregg Garner
And these are nones. Like N o n e, not n.
[00:03:29.84] - Jeff Sherrod
U n. That's a helpful distinction. Yeah, we're talking about the N o n e s. Yeah. Even you guys, I'm happy this out because we were going a different road.
[00:03:38.52] - Gregg Garner
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm here. I'm here to.
[00:03:40.75] - Jeff Sherrod
I appreciate the help. I appreciate that. And then the last group he calls the Duns D o n e s.
[00:03:48.69] - Brooke Vavold
Yeah, that makes sense.
[00:03:49.88] - Jeff Sherrod
Okay. Yeah. See in the context where I was going to get it. But these are people who participated in church for some period of their life and have walked away from the faith.
[00:03:57.47] - Gregg Garner
So I mean, bar is pretty low then.
[00:03:59.12] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:03:59.46] - Gregg Garner
So the person that is at the top is attending once a month.
[00:04:04.18] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:04:04.62] - Gregg Garner
Church identifies as Christian. The. The next level of people, couple times a year.
[00:04:10.25] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:04:10.71] - Gregg Garner
The third level of people don't.
[00:04:12.65] - Jeff Sherrod
They don't believe in any kind of religious. They have no religious affiliation.
[00:04:15.81] - Gregg Garner
And then the last levels are people who've been burnt by the experience.
[00:04:19.37] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. Essentially have no religious affiliation, but used to. Okay, okay. Yeah.
[00:04:24.75] - Gregg Garner
All right, tell us about them.
[00:04:25.93] - Jeff Sherrod
So part of what, you know, like one of the things that that's interesting is. And he did a study, George Kinnaman, who runs the Barna Group.
[00:04:32.25] - Gregg Garner
David Kinnaman.
[00:04:32.99] - Jeff Sherrod
Excuse me. Thank you. George Barna was the founder. The founder, yeah.
[00:04:37.12] - Gregg Garner
David took it over some years ago.
[00:04:38.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. So he did a study in 2023 and one of the things that he noted that Was interesting is that if you're looking at US teens and the way he defines US teens is people the age between 12 and 17 as of 2023. So young, very young. Gen Z. Is that all Gen Z even?
[00:04:58.54] - Gregg Garner
Yeah, that would all be Gen Z. And I think actually you're starting to. I mean that is the younger part of Gen Z. But after that they go to Gen Alpha.
[00:05:06.83] - Jeff Sherrod
Oh, after that. Yeah, yeah.
[00:05:08.14] - Gregg Garner
Around. Around that 12 years. Right now it's a different generation. Yeah.
[00:05:11.83] - Jeff Sherrod
So those would be essentially. Those will be the youngest of the Gen Z. Yeah, yeah. So 12, 13, 32% of those populations in the US said that they were Christians. They identified as Christians.
[00:05:24.11] - Gregg Garner
So about a third.
[00:05:25.01] - Jeff Sherrod
About a third. Now if you go to US young adults in that same, that same. That also in 2023, looking at the same group, the same survey, but this was young adults is defined as 18 to 20. Let me look at, I have over here 18 to 22. Okay.
[00:05:44.31] - Gregg Garner
It goes college. Traditional college age.
[00:05:46.30] - Jeff Sherrod
Traditional college age. This goes down to 17. So cuts in half, cuts in half in one year. And so this is part of, and this has been kind of, this is not new research in the sense that there's always been a higher percentage of people who are younger who say, yeah, you know, I think I'm a Christian. And then when they get these kind of college years or even millennial years, they kind of come back.
[00:06:08.11] - Gregg Garner
But effectively you're looking at people who have some profession of Christianity going into college. One out of two of them.
[00:06:16.06] - Jeff Sherrod
One out of two of them. Which is staggering. Yeah, yeah, staggering. The thing that they used to point to is that historically there's always been a drop off at this time period in people's lives. But then often people would kind of come back when they have kids and it would kind of find some equilibrium that is also not happening to the degree that.
[00:06:35.29] - Gregg Garner
What's the next stat then?
[00:06:36.75] - Jeff Sherrod
So the, the next stat is I'm just. Look, this is also about.
[00:06:40.08] - Gregg Garner
Okay, so you don't have like the next demographic.
[00:06:42.58] - Jeff Sherrod
I'd be so interested. No, I kind of focused for this. I was kind of focused on Gen Z.
[00:06:46.61] - Gregg Garner
That's right.
[00:06:48.17] - Jeff Sherrod
I appreciate that. So I think that's interesting. The other thing that is also unique about what's happening today, and this is among Gen Z, is that for the first time since they've been doing record keeping like this, there are women outnumber men among the young adults leaving religion in Gen Z. So Gen Z, if you're a guy who is part of gen Z, it's 54% of men will exit. No, no. Our part so of Christians in this age is 54% men, men and then.
[00:07:21.93] - Gregg Garner
46% women when the population is 51% women, 49% men.
[00:07:26.94] - Jeff Sherrod
Right, right. But it flips for every other demographic, millennials, Gen X, baby boomers and every single one of those demographics, women have more of the percentage of church going, faith based demographic. You know, people.
[00:07:43.29] - Gregg Garner
I was recently at a conference with David Kinnaman and was listening to him talk and we got to interact and chat about it and he brought up this stat specifically and then opened it up to the room to discuss why they thought there was a decline in women's participation.
[00:08:00.31] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:08:00.83] - Gregg Garner
In Christianity as part of that generation. It was an interesting conversation.
[00:08:04.70] - Jeff Sherrod
Well, it was like maybe a highlight. What would they say?
[00:08:08.01] - Gregg Garner
He didn't stamp anything anyone said. It was a discussion format so people are giving their answers. And it wasn't like he said. Yes, he was just leaving people open to it. So some of the people said things like, I think that women are coming to understand themselves unequally treated in the religious institutions. Like the furthest they could go is to become maybe like a pastor's wife or to say a prayer before an opening event. But there's still incredible friction when it comes to them maybe being a teacher or having leadership roles. And this generation, it doesn't want to have to even deal with that. That was one of the assertions. Another one was that media and the way that it's discussing everything, starting from the whole Me Too movement up until women's empowerment considerations on media is now giving enough resources that these young women are going to those resources and finding those resources, that knowledge base to meet the need in them to learn and grow and feel community so that they.
[00:09:22.41] - Jeff Sherrod
Don'T even need Gotcha.
[00:09:24.36] - Gregg Garner
The church or Christianity informal anymore.
[00:09:26.71] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. I heard like recently someone describe the MeToo movement and for women in Christianity as church too. It was like, you know, there was like a hashtag. People like, oh yeah, as a woman, I've also experienced church hurt essentially maybe. Or not feeling accepted.
[00:09:43.42] - Gregg Garner
Oh, so like, so like the Me Too movement, which, which came from women developing a voice in the workplace to say, right, I'm, I'm being taken advantage of, discriminated against, whatever it is they're now saying. But this also happens to us at church. Church too.
[00:09:57.62] - Jeff Sherrod
So then, yeah, they do like some posts and it's like hashtag church too.
[00:10:01.82] - Gregg Garner
Wow.
[00:10:02.41] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. So I've wondered, and I don't exactly know, but I've Wondered if it's part of it. Is. Is it that young men in this demographic are on the rise or is it just that women are. Are leaving and so it has a presence of more men? I don't exactly know what's happening there. Well, what's been. What for your guys? You know, churches. Growing up, what was kind of the demographic of people around your age? Was it mostly men? Mostly women? Half and half.
[00:10:24.97] - Gregg Garner
I mean, guess when you're that age, it'd be. We're asking them to think about the boys and girls.
[00:10:29.17] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:10:29.50] - Gregg Garner
They're participating with.
[00:10:30.71] - Jeff Sherrod
Right, right.
[00:10:31.21] - Gregg Garner
It's like in youth group, was it mostly guys or mostly girls?
[00:10:34.02] - Elijah Lovelace
It was mostly guys in my youth group, actually.
[00:10:35.87] - Gregg Garner
Really?
[00:10:36.14] - Elijah Lovelace
Yeah.
[00:10:36.39] - Gregg Garner
It was like. How many were in your youth group?
[00:10:39.00] - Elijah Lovelace
12.
[00:10:39.60] - Gregg Garner
12.
[00:10:40.12] - Elijah Lovelace
This is a smaller youth group.
[00:10:41.02] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. Yeah. And so out of those 12, how many were guys?
[00:10:43.08] - Elijah Lovelace
Probably eight, I would say.
[00:10:44.11] - Gregg Garner
Really?
[00:10:44.42] - Jeff Sherrod
Wow. Yeah.
[00:10:45.14] - Elijah Lovelace
Yeah.
[00:10:45.66] - Gregg Garner
That is very interesting.
[00:10:46.90] - Elijah Lovelace
Yeah.
[00:10:47.55] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:10:47.83] - Elijah Lovelace
It was a. It was a smaller church, and I.
[00:10:49.91] - Gregg Garner
Think we're only going to say it's interesting because we're part of this older generation.
[00:10:53.71] - Jeff Sherrod
We had a different experience everywhere. Yeah.
[00:10:56.46] - Gregg Garner
Oh, gosh. My Christian College in the 90s, it was. I think at least this is what people were saying it was a 4 to 1 ratio of girls to guy.
[00:11:04.11] - Elijah Lovelace
Wow.
[00:11:04.72] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:11:05.11] - Elijah Lovelace
That's a lot bigger than mine.
[00:11:08.00] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. So it's interesting to hear. And also.
[00:11:11.01] - Jeff Sherrod
And Christian. This is not unique in Christian college, especially at that time, it was just.
[00:11:15.16] - Gregg Garner
I mean, people used to say back then that the reason why the girl was at the school at all was to get her Mrs. Degree. And then they have slogans like ring by spring and things like that. So even then, you can hear in the. The joke, the discrimination against women to say this is about as far as you're going to go. But I think at that time, too, for our generation, it was like, if we can get young guys in here, that'd be awesome. Like, there was a lot of that thought just because there was so much participation from women already. How about in your group?
[00:11:43.94] - Brooke Vavold
I feel like it was pretty mixed. I feel like it did, like, tend to lean a little heavier on the guys, but it was pretty even.
[00:11:51.00] - Gregg Garner
Okay.
[00:11:51.61] - Brooke Vavold
Yeah.
[00:11:51.89] - Gregg Garner
All right. Which would probably reflect the statistic.
[00:11:55.52] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:11:55.80] - Gregg Garner
Because 54% to 46%.
[00:11:58.80] - Brooke Vavold
Right.
[00:11:59.15] - Gregg Garner
Just a little bit more.
[00:12:00.05] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:12:00.24] - Gregg Garner
You know, but that does reflect. But when you're talking about demographics and you're looking at 300 million.
[00:12:06.33] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. Yeah.
[00:12:06.85] - Gregg Garner
People.
[00:12:07.23] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:12:07.55] - Gregg Garner
It's a totally.
[00:12:08.12] - Jeff Sherrod
It's a ton. Yeah. So I'm also interested. I Think this is also part of, part of what we do want to ask is we're trying to evaluate church experience. We want to, we're, we're all at Bible college. We want to be able to serve our society better. And often that means serve the church, you know, better the people that are in it. But then it is helpful to recognize. Right. Why are people walking away and in that thing, maybe, you know, I know you guys aren't experts. You haven't done.
[00:12:33.22] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. In this new season of college conversations, one of our goals is to get more of your guys voices on this podcast. So there's, there's no right or wrong answer necessarily. It's just tell us your experience.
[00:12:47.00] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:12:47.50] - Gregg Garner
Like, what was that like? And I think, Brooke, maybe we can start with you as a, a young lady growing up and all of that. What, what, what was taught to you or did it feel hospitable to you as a woman? And, and did you feel like there was contribution to your identity as, as a woman or how to go?
[00:13:07.86] - Brooke Vavold
I'd say I like for youth group and specifically I didn't really like youth group. I kept going because I wanted to be somewhere on Wednesday night. And I was a very social person, but I never felt like I couldn't really do anything besides worship leading. Like, I wasn't, I didn't feel pushed to learn who I was very much. I was very, like, I was also the band aid person. Like, I take care of everybody else because I kind of came from a place where there was some like, trouble and so like, oh, she's the good girl. Like, that's kind of like everyone else.
[00:13:40.49] - Jeff Sherrod
In the group had problems.
[00:13:41.64] - Brooke Vavold
Yeah. Yeah. So I never felt, I never felt seen in my youth group. Often even like the leaders, like, they would attach themselves to like specific kids. And so then there was other kids who like, didn't felt, feel seen or loved. And a lot of them, I don't know why, but I do feel like a lot of them were girls or at least the girls that I had talked to. They didn't really necessarily feel like your.
[00:14:02.04] - Gregg Garner
Leaders, guys or girls or men there.
[00:14:05.86] - Brooke Vavold
They were a mix, actually.
[00:14:07.05] - Gregg Garner
Okay.
[00:14:07.48] - Brooke Vavold
Yeah.
[00:14:07.99] - Gregg Garner
So even though the women would gravitate more to helping out the boys, that.
[00:14:12.45] - Brooke Vavold
Or they had like a specific, like three girls that they would talk to and hang out with and like pour their. Pour into. Because my youth group was bigger. It was like 80 kids usually. So like it was a bigger youth group.
[00:14:23.82] - Gregg Garner
So when you say you didn't feel seen, can you, can you go into that like, what does that mean?
[00:14:28.83] - Brooke Vavold
Yeah, I, like, I put myself out there for, like, serving and everything, and, like, I wanted to, like, be a part. Like, I really did. But I felt very, like. I don't know, I felt like their answers to my. Even my questions weren't very, like, profound or like, they wouldn't even really listen to me. They tended to, like, talk about this other thing, and it tended to, like, lean towards gossip. So, like, even small groups, I just was like, oh, we're just, like, gossiping right now. Like, there's no. Like, I didn't feel filled by the scripture and I didn't feel like I was, like, gaining much. It often felt like I just gave and then left. Like, not feeling good about, like, that experience that I just had. So I didn't really, like, know what, like, because my leader, like, my small group leader was a woman, but I didn't really know what, like, having a woman leader that, like, knew the word really looked like. Because it would often tend towards, like, only talking to, like, specific girls and talking about their issues. But then there wasn't much scripture to back, like, what they were, like, talking about. And so then often I was just kind of sitting there listening and, like, not really being able to convince, contribute much, or, like, have a very good group discussion. So.
[00:15:45.71] - Jeff Sherrod
So in your experience, like, because, I mean, you've. You've gone on now to Bible college, you want to do ministry for your life. Like, it. It sounds like it wasn't necessarily a result of being inspired, you know, by that. So what was it for you? Like, I'm going to keep on. Was just a conviction in your heart or what?
[00:16:01.46] - Brooke Vavold
Yeah, I would say it was a conviction in my heart. I think there was a strong conviction in my heart to make it different for other kids, too, especially for youth, because just, like, growing up was like, I don't really feel, like, poured into. I don't really know the word. Like, it would be very easy for me to, like, walk away from this right now because it's frustrating and it's stressful. But I just was like, I. I can't do that. Like, there's. I see other kids here that are, like, dealing with things that. That either I'm dealing with or I'm not dealing with, but I just saw that need and I was like, I can't just walk away because I still know the answer is God, but I just want to know more of, like, what that looks like. So that was kind of. My conviction was, like, not leaving the other kids behind in that sense, I guess. But yeah.
[00:16:52.04] - Elijah Lovelace
Yeah. With that conviction in mind, do you. Were you ever given opportunities to mentor younger students?
[00:16:57.66] - Brooke Vavold
A little bit. So when I moved to Idaho, I put myself into a church. Like when I was 19, I put myself into a church to be a youth leader. And so I was one of, like, the many youth leaders. Like, I was a helper youth leader. And so in that point, I was able to, like, mentor like, middle school girls with another lady. And that was. That was one church that I actually felt very, like, welcomed. Like, that was the first, first church experience where I felt, like, heard and listened to by, like, leadership and felt like they actually wanted to get to know who I was. And I think that was very encouraging because I wasn't there very long. I didn't live in Idaho very long. I was a part of that church maybe four or five months before I ended up moving back to Tennessee. But I think that was like, kind of a breath of fresh air and like, something to like, push me on to continue working in, like, youth development. So.
[00:17:52.95] - Elijah Lovelace
Nice. That's awesome.
[00:17:54.28] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. What about you, Elijah? What's going on?
[00:17:56.25] - Elijah Lovelace
Yeah, my church actually felt pretty hospitable toward me, I would say. I was given a lot of opportunities to take on leadership roles or teaching through children's ministry or junior leader type role in the youth group, which is. I love that a lot. But for mine, our church was very heavy on disciple building. And so they would provide us with opportunities to do that, whatever that looked like, whether that was teaching or shadowing a teacher or serving in whatever capacity you could, what. What was available. So I was very thankful for the opportunities that I got at my church and it felt very hospitable towards me.
[00:18:33.25] - Gregg Garner
Did you notice the same opportunities were being offered to the women in the.
[00:18:36.74] - Elijah Lovelace
Youth group, the girls in the youth group? For a time, yes. I think that as the youth group started growing, those opportunities were not given to the women as much. And so I was actually thinking about that stat as well when I was listening to Brooke talk and how different my experience feels from yours.
[00:18:54.31] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. Just. Just by virtue of being a man and a woman. Right. Because it is. It is startling statistic.
[00:19:01.51] - Elijah Lovelace
Yeah.
[00:19:01.92] - Gregg Garner
Because I know for me it's felt like women, for the most part, have held this whole thing together for like the longest time. Even if you go back to Jesus's ministry and you read the Gospel of Luke, the Gospel is going to say it was these women who provided out of their own means for Jesus and his disciples to keep doing what they're doing. And when you get a story of just non hostile hospitality, it comes from Mary and Martha for Jesus. So I mean we've got some historical track record for women holding the scene together. And to hear this stat, I've been a little. Because I've been thinking about it since that conference. The conference was just a week ago, Right. Still a little jostling.
[00:19:44.48] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. And I, I don't know, you know, part of it I've also heard is kind of a. It's part of a growing shift towards a more conservative political atmosphere that we're in. Like young men going back to church because it's like young men because they're, they're going back. The churches that are growing the fastest are like Eastern Orthodox Church.
[00:20:05.04] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. High church.
[00:20:05.83] - Jeff Sherrod
High church expressions are the ones that are growing the fastest where it's very strong, kind of like men in charge and very ritualistic and less maybe what people would perceive as emotional people come back. But I think, I think that you know, even your guys experiences, there's two things I'm thinking about. One, just the difference between a man and a woman. I wonder if you had been in her church, like what would your experience been? We don't exactly know. But also just you because you're in your situation, you're coming into like you want to do a life of following Jesus in part because your background in church, I'm guessing as well. Or was it in because Brooks kind of saying it was almost in spite of it.
[00:20:42.98] - Gregg Garner
Elijah, you shared with me that. And you just said right now that disciple building was a big emphasis in there. And seems to me that in your testimony of things you're highly invested into.
[00:20:53.06] - Elijah Lovelace
Yes.
[00:20:53.50] - Gregg Garner
Like people were taking time to build into you and give you opportunities to kind of see yourself as a minister into the future.
[00:20:59.89] - Elijah Lovelace
Yes, sir. Yeah.
[00:21:00.71] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. So I imagine that had a lot.
[00:21:03.41] - Jeff Sherrod
To do with your shape because was there other people like in your situation where like, hey, we're all kind of ministry minded. Many of us are going on to think about following Jesus as like a vocational pursuit for a whole life.
[00:21:14.19] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:21:14.39] - Elijah Lovelace
I'd say there's a good group of us guys specifically from the church who.
[00:21:17.50] - Gregg Garner
Felt that where Brook's complaint is that she wasn't even seen enough, even though she was willing and wanted to be a part, it just didn't present the opportunity. And of course we're just looking at our, our stories here and maybe they do inform why that stat is the way it is. But yeah, it's, it's, it's really unfortunate that this, this younger generation of ladies feels that Christianity in the church isn't a place to be seen or to grow.
[00:21:53.00] - Elijah Lovelace
Yeah.
[00:21:53.59] - Gregg Garner
Or to have association with.
[00:21:56.66] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. Yeah. I mean, it feels like you were saying, like, they've held this together forever. And when you said. You said from way back, and then you went back to Jesus. So, like, for a long time. And then to constantly get into situations or church culture, church polity, where it's like, well, you're not. I hate to say. I hate to say the word value, but that's how I feel right now.
[00:22:19.64] - Gregg Garner
Well, you know, our VP of enrollment, she was at the same conference in another session, and one of the speakers wanted to bring up, like, what you need to do to stick to your mission. And he cites an example, I think you were in the conversation when she shared with us, and his example was, for example, women not teaching. And she was kind of sitting in the audience going, and she's a woman professor. You know, she's just kind of sitting.
[00:22:45.55] - Jeff Sherrod
There going, oh, boy, you could have said 1,000 things.
[00:22:48.40] - Gregg Garner
There's 1,000 other things that you could have picked, but this is the one that we're going to use it as an example as to what it means to stick to your Christian values. And obviously the guy felt safe enough to say that.
[00:23:01.84] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:23:02.18] - Gregg Garner
Without realizing that the room was probably a good percentage of women who are having to listen to this. And I guess some of those women are like, yeah, he's right. And then others of them is like, whoa, this is. Is this the value we want to hold on to? Right.
[00:23:17.93] - Elijah Lovelace
Yeah.
[00:23:18.81] - Jeff Sherrod
One of the other things that George Kinnaman says in research, I'm interested in, David. Gosh, goodness gracious. Okay, David Kinnaman. Thanks for correcting me. Another thing he says is that one of the factors that young people that they look to, to say both, like, holding on to church forever, like people that stay in church, and then also satisfaction with their Christian life. They look at like, God's help me. Is that they had adult partners in church. Like, there was like, an intergenerational kind of mentors. Mentors. Yeah, that kind of thing. So I'm maybe not. Instead of just asking, did you guys have mentors? Because you kind of already said that I'm at. Maybe the question is, do you feel like generally older generations in the church listen to the concerns of Gen Z or what do you guys think along those lines, what's been your experience and.
[00:24:06.85] - Gregg Garner
And tap into your memory as being in church?
[00:24:09.06] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. Yeah.
[00:24:11.94] - Elijah Lovelace
I'd say for me, it was kind of a spectrum of, yes, they would, but then sometimes they wouldn't. I think that in my conversations with specifically Boomers, I would say they were more. So I don't quite understand your generation, and I don't really understand how to help you. Whereas you'd get a little bit lower on the millennial spectrum. They. They'd have a little bit more understanding. They'd be more willing. I'd say that would be my experiences a little bit on the spectrum.
[00:24:37.84] - Brooke Vavold
Okay. I don't really know about everybody else, but I don't. I never had a mentor, and I didn't really feel, like, comfortable even being super vulnerable with anybody at my churches. Like, I've been to several churches until I went to that church when I was 19 years old. That was, like, the first time I was like, oh, this is what having a mentor can look like. And so, in general, no, I didn't really see it happening, and I didn't really see it happening for other people, except, like, very few specific kids.
[00:25:08.44] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:25:08.96] - Gregg Garner
So, like, the special ones.
[00:25:10.27] - Brooke Vavold
Yeah, the special children.
[00:25:11.23] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:25:11.55] - Brooke Vavold
Yeah.
[00:25:13.73] - Gregg Garner
You know what I think is interesting about when I listen to Gen Z talk? It's like, y'all don't know anything about the Xers. I always hear y'all go Boomer to Millennial. Y'all never talk about extra. Most of your parents are like Gen Xers. It's a pretty interesting thing. It's like, in your mind, do they just become boomers? Like, there's a new science? Well, I. I know that when I listen to Gen Z kids talk, you know, a couple minor, like, in the prime of it, and one of them, I feel things like, two of them, I think, are believe themselves to be spokespersons for Gen Z, but they. They. Whenever they want to, like, poke at generations, they'll just call them boomers. So they'll even talk about their friends as, like, well, she's a boomer, he's a boomer. They just skip millennial. They skip X. And I just never hear y'all ever talk about Gen X. Are you familiar with that generation at all?
[00:26:08.49] - Brooke Vavold
Well, I didn't really grow up around many Gen Xers, I don't think. I had my parents, obviously, but since we moved around a lot, there wasn't, like, a lot of them that I was, like, super familiar with. I wouldn't. So really, if I knew any Gen Xers, it would be my aunt or just people that we'd go to their.
[00:26:27.23] - Jeff Sherrod
House, like, churches, either very old, much older people, or people your age.
[00:26:30.93] - Brooke Vavold
Not Necessarily. I just didn't really like talk to Gen Xers much.
[00:26:34.58] - Gregg Garner
I don't think Boomers you did talk to, I mean.
[00:26:37.10] - Brooke Vavold
Yeah, because they're sweet.
[00:26:41.32] - Gregg Garner
How about you?
[00:26:42.24] - Elijah Lovelace
I guess, to be completely honest, I forgot about the label for Gen Xers. Yeah.
[00:26:46.38] - Gregg Garner
And you, they just become boomers, correct? Yeah, yeah, that's what I think it is. Yeah. For most Gen Z kids, they're just old. They're just like, there's, there's the people who are older than us kind of get us. Those are the millennials. Everybody else is a boomer.
[00:27:00.97] - Elijah Lovelace
What is the age range again for Gen Xers?
[00:27:03.30] - Gregg Garner
You know, it's all debated. It depends on who, who is the group of people doing your demographic research. So like you have the Gallup Organization, Barna or Pew, and they're all going to have different age ranges. I think for most people, Gen X is somewhere between like 1960 and 65 and 1975 and 80, somewhere in between there and then when you fall into those little windows, they often reference that as the cusp. So a person can have traits that belong to one generation more than the other and then so they affiliate with that. But then there's, there's been talks over the years, like I know a lot of Gen X people who want to create a new group they call Xennials, which is tough because you have Gen Z and the Z sounds like Z, but it's actually based on X xz. It's like a combination of Gen X and Millennial. And they'll define themselves as having an analog childhood with a digital adulthood and they call themselves Xennials. But in my opinion that's a very Gen X thing to do, is to just all of a sudden find a way to nuance themselves in the demographics. But I know for me, I was born in the cusp between Millennial and Gen X, but I think being a missionary kid and being in another country and then basically missing the 80s and then coming back into the 90s, that's where all my pop culture and all kinds of other things come into play. So I think that that's probably what pulled me more toward the millennial side being on the cusp. And so I think that's the case even with this demographic we're talking about. Those 12 year olds are on the cusp and they might be pulled one way or the other depending on their personal circumstances. But, but yeah, generally it's going to be people like who are your parents age or Gen Xers at this point, and then a little older than them become the boomers. The boomers came out. The reason why they're called the boomers is because after World War II, everybody came back from the war and boom, you had a population surge. And those are the boomers.
[00:29:05.16] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah, yeah.
[00:29:05.84] - Elijah Lovelace
Thank you. That's helpful clarification. When you're talking, I realize that my mom is a Gen Xer, so yeah, it's helpful.
[00:29:12.91] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. Let me bring up one more thing that David Kinnaman says.
[00:29:16.83] - Gregg Garner
David, David. You got it.
[00:29:18.81] - Jeff Sherrod
Is, along with like, an intergenerational experience. Also just noting that Gen Z is very much looking for relationships. When they go to church, both with peers and with older people, sometimes people, younger people report that it's obvious that the church is very interested in quantitative growth. And that can be like a turn off. Like, dude, it's all about numbers for some of these places. So what's been some of your. Have you guys felt that it's places that you guys. Brooke, you have so much experience this year, many churches. So yeah. What's been. What's been some of your experiences here?
[00:29:50.17] - Brooke Vavold
Yeah.
[00:29:50.76] - Jeff Sherrod
And. And maybe follow up with. Do you agree with that sentiment? Like, does it make kind of like, oh, gosh, it's. There's not enough focus on relationship. There's too much focus on quantitative growth.
[00:29:59.86] - Brooke Vavold
Yeah, Yeah. I think the church I went to for my high school years, I would say yes, they were very concerned with numbers and, like, their growth is their church. Because they would often even just be like, we've grown by this many people attending our church. Like, we're like, this much than we were last week. And I think that really turned me off because I was like, yeah, but I've been here for three years and I'm not close to any of you. So I think that was a turn off because it's not that, like, the growing in the numbers is necessarily a bad thing, but I do think that there were some other, like, things neglected and like, the, I don't know, like, the light on, like, having more people should have been shifted to, like, the people that they should have invested into. Then with other churches, I think it kind of depended on, like, if I was at, like, a country church where it's just like grandma and all the aunts that went to church. So they're not really concerned about that. They just want to go to church.
[00:30:53.96] - Gregg Garner
And notice how even when you talk about the older generation, you describe the women of the older generation, because they're probably the grandpa people there.
[00:31:00.19] - Brooke Vavold
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's like, in those Churches, like, it was like, majority, like women and, you know, they take their husband with them, but. And the pastor.
[00:31:08.01] - Jeff Sherrod
But take the pastor with them, too. Yeah.
[00:31:10.81] - Brooke Vavold
Like, the modern churches, I would say, were more like men and even like men focused. But then like some of the older churches, it was like a lot of, like the older ladies and like the moms and all their kids. So.
[00:31:23.02] - Gregg Garner
Yeah, I like the way you. You communicated that. You, you conceded. It's not a bad thing to keep track of numbers and want to have growth. But then your criticism is that. But at the same time, you're. You're not even paying attention to who you have. Right. And so you're, you're growing and you're growing in number quantitatively, but qualitatively.
[00:31:45.42] - Brooke Vavold
Yeah.
[00:31:45.76] - Gregg Garner
There's no relationship that's developing. And I think that's a real good insight for those of us who are running ministries and trying to grow them, because I know that for us as a ministry, one of the criticisms that we would get often is that you guys put a lot of work into your own people, but there's a big world out there. Why aren't you serving them? Which I always found funny, because we're like a leading missions organization and community service organization in our city and around the world. But people do see how much energy we try to put into the qualitative growth of our people. And just. It would. The criticism would usually come from other Christians.
[00:32:25.74] - Brooke Vavold
Yeah.
[00:32:26.10] - Gregg Garner
Who are just like, you know, you got to get out there and you got to serve people you don't know. And that, that, that is also rubbed me wrong. I, I don't like the way that. I think that creates a friction that doesn't make sense in the Bible. So it's, it's, it's my. In my opinion, listening to you, and if others of your generation hold that perspective, I think it's, It's a great perspective. I think you should feel good about that criticism to say, hey, I've been in your church. You were very excited to grow. I was there. I wasn't growing. Nobody was. It's. It's like collecting things. They're people. You collect them, but then you don't feed them.
[00:33:08.45] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:33:09.00] - Gregg Garner
The goal is so they're just depleting. But it's like instead of feeding them and growing them, let's just replenish them with a new one.
[00:33:16.93] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. So it's almost like you're calculating the attrition rate, you know, like, we have to grow faster than what people leave.
[00:33:22.77] - Gregg Garner
So we need two coming in before 11 depletes.
[00:33:25.34] - Jeff Sherrod
Right?
[00:33:25.53] - Elijah Lovelace
Yeah.
[00:33:25.85] - Gregg Garner
Because leaving might be a result of the depletion. Based upon what you guys are saying here. It sounds like a lot of this. This. This exit is coming because people aren't seen. People aren't invested into. People aren't. Aren't getting a growth experience, which especially for young people, they deserve that. They deserve to have that. Especially when you're serving the God who kicked the whole thing off going, abraham, listen, it's through your offspring, through that next generation, that I want to bless the families of the earth. Or you just listen to Jesus, hey, take a look at these young people here. You want to be great? Look at them take the world in the way that they would want to take it in. You got to kind of pay attention to this stuff. But I also know what it's like being on the other side of having administrative pressures, financial pressures. And it's real unfortunate when all of a sudden people become another way. Like, you talk about the growth of your church. The number of people. There are others who just hear you saying, well, that's 300 people. That's 300 tithes. That's. That's 300 students. That's 300 tuition revenues. Like, the. The people get there, and then they can even get desensitized talking like that. Maybe initially they had concessions, saying, not that they're the. The. These people equal money. These people go ties. But then the culture keeps getting numb to that. And now all your operations and functions and a young group of people like yourselves are seeing right through it and going, yeah, we see this.
[00:34:54.13] - Jeff Sherrod
I think that's the good thing is, like, people see through this. Right? Like, Brooke, you have to tell the trapeze story. Tell us the scale.
[00:35:03.30] - Brooke Vavold
Okay, so I was looking at my Facebook page. Cause I do that, like, once every five months in December, and I'm shocked.
[00:35:12.19] - Gregg Garner
You have a Facebook page.
[00:35:13.61] - Brooke Vavold
I have it for, like, my aunt, my grandparents, they all live in Idaho, so I gotta keep up with them somehow. But my church, my old church, I was following them, and they were just showing their. What they did for Christmas. And there's a whole live nativity out in the yard. They have a whole, whole camel. But they also have this, like, an actual camel.
[00:35:34.51] - Gregg Garner
Oh, yeah, like a camel camel from the zoo.
[00:35:37.69] - Brooke Vavold
So they have, like this farm, like this exotic animal farm that they, like, rent from every year. And they bring them in, you know, for this live Nativity. They got that. They got Santa, they got Grinch. They have this whole play.
[00:35:52.80] - Gregg Garner
Get in there.
[00:35:54.55] - Brooke Vavold
I Was actually in that play a few years ago.
[00:35:58.48] - Elijah Lovelace
Wow.
[00:35:59.13] - Gregg Garner
Oh, you would have been a good Cindy Lou, I think.
[00:36:01.42] - Brooke Vavold
Oh, yeah, I was a camera woman. I was like the. Yeah, Wow.
[00:36:04.73] - Gregg Garner
I think you would have been good in Whoville.
[00:36:06.23] - Brooke Vavold
Thank you. But they also had the. A ropes artist, like a rope dancer, like, hanging from the ceiling just, like, all over the place and just like, photos of that, like a professional violinist. They all had, like, thousands of candles for, like, a candle.
[00:36:23.03] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah, and that was.
[00:36:24.32] - Brooke Vavold
That was their. That was one of their, you know, Christmas services because they have, like, several and they're all a little bit different. So. Yeah, that was.
[00:36:34.96] - Gregg Garner
Well, David Kinnaman in. In the comments area, he said something that I thought was. Was pretty interesting. And just like his. His reputation and the kind of influence he has for him to say it, and front of a big group of. Of administrators of Christian colleges who are inter. Intimately intertwined, most of them with, like, the church, he said, well, you know, when it comes to church, are we just talking about a group of event planners who have 52 events a year that they've got to put on? And I was like, listen to them say that in front of everybody. But yeah, I mean, that's a big event to plan.
[00:37:11.28] - Elijah Lovelace
It's like a whole performance.
[00:37:12.76] - Gregg Garner
Yeah, yeah.
[00:37:13.63] - Jeff Sherrod
52 is like the baseline and. Yeah, right, right.
[00:37:17.96] - Gregg Garner
And do you think that, like, the, like, your generation wants that kind of entertainment? Is that like a draw for you or are you like, okay, I'm over it.
[00:37:27.73] - Brooke Vavold
Maybe. Maybe for me personally, it was like, kind of a turn off. I was like, wow, this is so much. And like, they would, like, do things like, every other week. So it's like once a month you have this big event, and I just got tired of it, really. I think that they were trying to be intentional and like, bringing in the public, because that was like, a big goal that they had. But I think after a while it just got like, repetitive and like, we're doing the same thing. We're trying to just, like, advertise ourselves. And I didn't really like the way that it was being done.
[00:37:58.69] - Elijah Lovelace
Yeah, it's definitely not something I would be attracted to, but it seems like they were trying to attract the public or people who would see that as interesting so as to maybe evangelize or get whoever else they could come to church. On the other side of that, if.
[00:38:13.21] - Gregg Garner
You guys were going to be spokespersons for your generation, which were, you know, we. We acknowledge there's diversity in your generation, but just speaking from your own experience, both of you are saying that's a, that's a turn off to us. We don't, we don't like it. Do you, do you think you know others of your friends who are part of your generation who would feel similar or do you think they'd be like, no, dude, that'd be the best? I wish every Sunday was Cirque du Soleil.
[00:38:36.36] - Elijah Lovelace
I think that there would be a handful on both sides, actually.
[00:38:39.92] - Gregg Garner
Okay.
[00:38:40.36] - Elijah Lovelace
Yeah, I'd say the. Those of us who are.
[00:38:44.19] - Gregg Garner
Do you think it's. It'd be equal?
[00:38:45.69] - Elijah Lovelace
No, I think it'd be more so on the. I'm not attracted to this specifically. I think those of us who are more serious about our biblical education or see that church should be a, an environment where we're learning the word together and we're worshiping together rather than a performance.
[00:38:59.96] - Gregg Garner
Yeah, I like it.
[00:39:01.36] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. There's so much to say here. Maybe I'll just kind of. We need to finish this one up. There is a lot to say in this topic, but if you guys were inviting someone to church and you wanted to feel good about, like, and let's just say a gen. In a general sense, like, you're inviting someone to church, like, I really hope that they would see, what would you want people that you're inviting to church to see if they came?
[00:39:26.13] - Elijah Lovelace
I think for me it would be God's word as a source of freedom rather than a weaponization. Because in one of the churches that I visited recently, it was more so throwing around condemnation and telling people that what they're doing is wrong. And inherently, if they don't turn around, then they're just destined for their understanding of hell and suffering. And in my own experience of learning the Bible, it has set me free from a lot of culture, a lot of fear, a lot of misidentification of who I am with respect to my culture or what other people would say about me rather than what God says about me. So for me, I'd want people to experience God's word as a source of freedom.
[00:40:06.71] - Gregg Garner
Like it?
[00:40:07.19] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah, that's good. That's cool.
[00:40:08.28] - Elijah Lovelace
Thanks.
[00:40:08.86] - Jeff Sherrod
Anything, Brooke.
[00:40:09.71] - Brooke Vavold
I would like, even from my story, from my story, I would say, like, I would want them to come to a place, like, I'd want them to come a place where they would feel like very welcomed. Like, even like before the service, after the service, like even just like going out to lunch, like having that. Those nerves, like taken away from them and them just feeling like they have a place to be, they have a.
[00:40:32.63] - Jeff Sherrod
Place to sit, like these people care.
[00:40:34.26] - Brooke Vavold
Yeah, they care, but they also, like, care about, like, the word that's being spoken. Like, having having the word given to them, but then also, like, having people by them to support them.
[00:40:47.30] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Well, I appreciate you guys being here with us today.
[00:40:51.48] - Gregg Garner
Thank you so much.
[00:40:52.26] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah, thanks for you guys out here. Thanks for joining us today on College Conversations. We'll see you guys next time. Thanks for joining us today on College Conversations. Please, like, subscribe share this episode with others. If you guys have a comment, we would love to hear from you. If you want to learn more about our work, you can visit us at theinstituteforgod.edu. Until then, we'll see you guys next time.