College Conversations S1E1: Rethinking Christian College: What’s the Point? (Transcript)
Gregg D. Garner is the Founder and President of The Institute for GOD, where he lectures on Bible, theology, missions, and entrepreneurialism.
Episode Synopsis
Gregg D. Garner, the Institute’s Academic Dean Jeff Sherrod, and VP of Enrollment Laurie Kagay, launch our podcast asking the most relevant question - what’s the point of Christian Higher Ed? This discussion focuses on the unique aspects of a biblical education, emphasizing its impact on student faith and how it differs from conventional academic approaches.
College Conversations Season 1 Episode 1:
Rethinking Christian College - What’s the Point?
(Episode Transcript)
Gregg D. Garner
Hi, and welcome to The Institute for Global Outreach Developments podcast entitled, College Conversations where we will be having various conversations all about higher education, specifically Christian higher education. And through these conversations, we hope to invite you into the dialogue by thinking about those things that if you are looking for a post secondary experience, you should be considering there are a lot of factors to think through that are very important when it comes to choosing a college, whether it's an undergraduate program or graduate program, and not all of them have to do with merely the reputation of the school. Right. So we will be talking about that. Well, as you can hear their voices I have with me today, professors Jeff Sherrod, and Laurie Kagay.
They will be with me on this journey for the most part and on occasion themselves hosting as we have these conversations concerning college. Now, I think our listeners because you started mining and everything we're like, who's the ministry person's back in introductory communication. But you know, I haven't even introduced myself, I think so. I am Gregg Garner, I am the Founder and President of the Institute for GOD International. And I've had the privilege of serving in this role since 2004, when the school was established. My father, Mike Garner, Dr. Mike Garner, was instrumental in framing the beginnings of the school, of which both of you attended, right, and I think, Jeff, you came and having graduated from another school? And we'll talk about that in a bit. Yeah. You actually came on to adjunct initially, but also enrolled in courses, is that correct? That's right. Yeah. And that was 2000, 2000 … end
Jeffrey Sherrod
of 2006. Beginning 2007.
Gregg Garner
There you go. And then Laurie, you enrolled at the school in 2006.
Laurie Germeraad Kagay
Right. transfer student? No, I came in 2005? Five,
Gregg Garner
Yes. Five, yes. Fall of 2005. Right. Yeah. So we're gonna, we're gonna hear more about this as our conversation continues. But for you who are listening, that space that I want you to be in with your mind is one of considering, again, what makes for an effective post secondary, you know, post high school education? And specifically, what makes for an effective post secondary Christian education? So what were some of the things that you guys were thinking about when you're choosing College? How sophisticated was the rubric in your mind for navigating the different options that you had?
Jeff Sherrod
Yeah, I don't think that I think at the time, I didn't have a very complicated rubric. My mom didn't go to college, my dad was the first person in his family to ever go to college. So there wasn't a lot of exposure there. He did go to a Christian school, and graduate there and did ministry afterwards. Part of what I was looking for was something that was gonna be affordable, but then also something that was going to teach God's word. That's kind of what I was looking for. And it probably didn't go beyond that. It felt like a means to an end, probably, you know, coming out of high school, like, let me go through and get a college education and get, you know…
Gregg Garner
I think a lot of people feel like that, right? We just have to jump through the hoops to get us a piece of paper, that now is acts like a ticket to get us into the door of whatever career it is, right? We're going into and if we think we have a calling, it would be not too different, right? Yeah…
Laurie Kagay
I also didn't have I would say, too sophisticated of a rubric. I think I actually went on so many college visits, because I'm the youngest in my family. So I went with my sisters. My parents went to college as an educator. Right, right. He's an educator, they both went to college. I think the the different part for me was, I didn't have a rubric for Christian education. So I was mostly looking at secular colleges universities, and enrolled in one and then realized, oh, man, I can't just do whatever and say it's for Jesus. I actually need to go somewhere that will teach me His word. Yeah.
Gregg Garner
And that is a common paradigm for people right? The I call it the the my buddy syndrome. There. When I was a kid, there's this doll that came out called my buddy. And then actually, the next phase was the kid sister. And they had like these really catchy songs, my buddy, my buddy, wherever I go, he goes, because yes, and maybe maybe these commercials on this dolls have made a resurgence in the last years. But this this, my buddy theology is the idea that wherever I go, Jesus is gonna go Yeah, and that's just not To like, we're not like follow me, Jesus, Jesus is telling us follow him. Right. And you can't follow him effectively, if you're following all the bells and whistles of marketing programs from largely funded institutions, yeah, that are just decorating their, their places with, you know, whatever it is that we find attractive within the scope of our calling, because one of the big criticisms that you'll hear on this podcast coming from me is that the church has to get involved in this conversation, because the church is raising Christian kids. And then, in my opinion, ironically, sending them off to secular institutions thinking we're going to send them out as light and they're going to win over the schools there.
There's absolutely no data that demonstrates these kinds of things are happening in such a way that we're seeing the the, probably the memories folks had of like the Billy Graham era with with like Youth for Christ and Campus Crusade funny name, they changed it, they call themselves crooner, but that we, you know, where you have these college campus groups in secular universities, who all of a sudden we're, we're winning folks over, but what people don't get is like the accrediting association that we're a part of. There's 75 years old right now older than some of the other, like, regional accrediting associations, but they did not exist when some of these early college campus movements were happening. Yeah. Because the Christian college movement itself wasn't really a thing, because the initial colleges in this country, the United States were Christian. Right? That's right. Yeah. Well, we'll give you some samples. You've probably heard of them. Harvard, Yale, Princeton. Yeah. Vanderbilt, like brown. Just keep going. Yeah, we can keep going. But we all know today. They're they're pretty far away from being institutions that are concerned with the gospel of Jesus. Yeah. And making disciples of nations. And so certainly five years ago, when the Association for Biblical Higher Education, the ABHE, started getting formed by these academic ministers who recognize the importance of a Christian college education. The idea was that the church would get involved, and that the church would get their people, their kids ready to be put into those higher educational institutions. Yeah. So that specific training in the Word of God, and specific training in the values that make us followers of Jesus would be a part of every Christian’s life. Yeah, right.
Laurie Kagay
I think there are just certain things that you can't learn about the Lord even until you go through that experience of being on your own. And I think when we have this desire, let's send kids to a college campus and let them light up the darkness. It. I mean, it's a nice hope, but like that their…
Gregg Garner
parents as adults can't even do that at work, right? Because they never got equipped, either, because they didn't go to Christian College. Yeah.
Laurie Kagay
And I think the stats are now like two thirds of those Christians will walk away from the faith altogether.
Gregg Garner
Oh, yeah. Which has climbed up. Yeah, right from from what it has been. I know that the Barna Research Group with David Kinnaman, they do a lot of research into this generation, Gen Z. In the recently they published several works, that if anyone reads will recognize the challenge that we're in, there's of course, a whole piece in every piece of data. I mean, we serve Jesus, right? But when you look at it, if we don't act in a way that demonstrates the kind of faith that comes right, hearing and hearing the Word of God so that we are following Jesus in this, we will just keep sending our kids to these institutions, that though they may have a great reputation in this world, they have no interest whatsoever in equipping young people with the tools they need to navigate life and life is challenging.
Jeff Sherrod
I think that's something that people do need to recognize because, you know, we're people are walking away from the faith. This is Barna saying this as well, at rates faster than what they've been able to do research in the past. This is happening. And COVID probably exasperated…
Gregg Garner
Oh yeah. I know COVID was exacerbating the previous loneliness pandemic, right? Which you just you're just piling gunk on top of gunk. And it's hard to remove such residue. Yeah, yeah. And
Jeff Sherrod
People are, you know, I've, I've talked to people before, and they're, they're looking for a particular college that, you know, is a Christian liberal arts school, more liberal arts and Christian, often, but unfortunately,
Gregg Garner
The trend of a lot of bigger Christian schools is to go liberal art. That's right. Yeah. And it's because of that mentality. See that they see in the students, which is likely coming from the parents, who and a lot of these kids, you know, their Gen Z is characterized by the Great Recession. Yeah, from 2007, from The Big Short and the housing market and everything crashed. And so like concern with job and money has kind of characterize their upbringing, they saw their parents kind of have to struggle. And now their parents just went back to what their parents had said, which is you need a college education, and has to be with the right kind of pedigrees from the right kind of institutions, right, so that you won't have to suffer through some kind of economic downturn or whatever. And really, that kind of thinking is faithless, right. Yeah, it does not pay attention to, if you seek with priority, or first the kingdom of God is righteousness, then you won't have to worry about what you're going to eat or what you're going to drink. You won't have to have anxiety about your needs.
Jeff Sherrod
No, the thinking is opposite. It's first think about what you need. And then after that, you're secure. Right? And then after your secure day, then go learn the Bible once you have it all figured out. Yeah.
Gregg Garner
The advice of parents these days is definitely Oh, you feel called to serve the Lord. That's great. Why don't you get a real education first, then you get a real job to make real money. Right? And then after that, you can go get your Biblical education. Yeah.
Jeff Sherrod
And then we still wonder why they're walking away from the faith. Yeah, that's like, Man, I don't know what you were hoping was going to happen. When you say go after the things of this world…
Gregg Garner
It seems to me that, that we have a golden calf in our midst. We, just as a society, as a Christian culture, can identify how it is we've contributed to its formation. Yeah. And I mean, post secondary education is is a staple to the economy of the United States. Yeah, they are. The United States is invested. The Sallie Mae program, among other things, demonstrates how invested the United States is in educating our young people, but more so in prolonging the institutions that create space, and have the reputation of having created space for young people to get some kind of knowledge so that they're able to be productive members of our industrial, technological, capitalistic society. Yeah. And the schools are training them for the kingdom of America, or the Kingdom of England, or the kingdom of Uganda, wherever you live, right. And I'm not mad at them. Sure. That's what they need to do. But Christian colleges are training young people for the kingdom of God. Yeah. And sacred college can't do that. No, right? It can't. And to think that your kid's gonna go to a secular college and get everything they need, from a Sunday school program, or a college campus group meeting, or a summer mission trip is, gosh, I don't want to be sensational about it. Because otherwise it's it's insane. Right. But I would say it's at least foolish. Yeah.
Laurie Kagay
Yeah. And that was my experience. I went to a Christian college, I went to, you know, as a part of campus ministries, enjoyed it, you know, I felt like, did everything I could. But in the end, I'm like, I think God is a calling on my life. And there's nothing here for me. There's no, there's no training available for me, I have to go somewhere that will teach me how to follow Jesus. I can't be self taught in that way. You can't just read books on my own.
Gregg Garner
And it's in again, I've tried to be nice by not saying insane. But let's think about something if we really have the conviction that Jesus is Lord, and he's commissioned us, as His people to be holy. And in that case, follow through with his agenda. So much so that we pray, your kingdom come your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And that we recognize this agenda is a life saving agenda. Yeah, then what it is that Jesus wants us to do is a matter of life and death. Yes. Let's now just look at an analogy here. Because we recognize other professions, like becoming a doctor, surgeon in particular, this is a matter of life and death, right? How would we feel if a surgeons like resume included their education, and when you looked at it, they went to Bible school. And they were on an on campus club for people who wanted to get into the medical space. And once a week, they got to hear from other doctors just kind of share some of their insights for the general audience of whom which they attended. Would we want them to now be operating on us? Absolutely.
Jeff Sherrod
I love this, right? Because it's laughable. You'd still have to be ….
Gregg Garner
This is what we expect. In Christianity. We're like, Ooh, I love this man. He's He's literally teaching the Word of God. But then when you look at his resume, he'll go to I've been self taught, or I have a revelation from God. But there are so many Biblically literate people in the world, they can't even tell the difference between what it is this person saying that comes from God versus what it is that they're saying that's just merely religious. And this person is not going to be vetted by anyone. There's not going to be any legal regulation on them with respect to whether or not they can Yeah, preach the gospel or speak the word of God. And it's created a lot of promise. Yes,
Jeff Sherrod
I think it must. Part of it is probably that people don't perceive it to be a matter of life and death anymore. You know, that this is ancillary to their development. Faith is a part of it, it's not central anymore. And that that's part of the church's fault. That's part of, you know, Christian colleges fault.
Gregg Garner
Yeah. It even gets more intense when it comes to the mission field. Yeah. Right. Because now you're working with easily impressionable, vulnerable people. And all you really need to do is these days, have some money, some video cameras, the ability to post stuff on the web? Yeah. And you're a hero. You're a hero. Yeah. And we know, because this is part of our expertise, that these folks are actually creating a bunch of chaos, and really damaging the reputation of Jesus. Right? And they wouldn't know any better. We have a bunch of folks walking around in the name of Jesus. And they don't know him. I think people would be like, Gregg, that's, that's harsh. But I'm literally quoting Jesus here. Yeah. For many will come to me that day and say, Lord, Lord, did we not cast out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name? Did we not prophesy in your name? And then he'll call them workers of lawlessness, which means they've been working. Yeah. But law member law for Jesus and law for us is different. Yeah. We're not talking about the Constitution and statutory codes of our municipalities. For Jesus, the law was the Bible. Right? So if they're a worker of lawlessness, there are people who are Yeah, working. And they're even doing it in Jesus name. Yeah. But not according to a biblical paradigm. Right. Yeah. They don't know, biblical workers. And that's, to me is one strong way to characterize what the heck is happening in the world right now.
Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. Even I think, at Christian colleges to and this is where, you know, because that you can't just say, well, if everyone just went to a Christian college, it all be fixed. You know, there's, there's work that has to be done all across the board to you know, Christian colleges have probably for too long, they've been out of touch with realities that are facing kids today. And as the culture changes, they don't keep abreast of those things. I remember taking a college class and we had a memorize the 168 places, you know, and just on a map of Israel, and as you know, at some point, you're like, I can look at a map later. But what does this teach me about life and godliness? Because there's so much emphasis on the what and the when, rather than, like the how, right, why even
Gregg Garner
Even some of these, like, biblical literacy examination tests that institutions will perform to see whether or not your school is actually teaching the Bible? Or kind of absurd? Because they will ask those kinds of questions. Do you know these 160 places in right, in Palestine, and then it's the difference between knowing something and knowing someone, right? Because it's not really teaching them how to know the Lord. It's just teaching them. And these days, I mean, it's part of the philosophy of the Academy for God, which is our K through 12 school that I tried to demonstrate sometimes when people were trying to get kids to rote memorize a bunch of things, just the difference between when they went to school, and how inaccessible technology was for them to be able to compute certain things, where today, I remember when I was in high school, I had my TI 85 calculator that I was carrying around. But now I have something even more complex in my pocket that I take with me everywhere, that can do pretty amazing computations for me, even beyond my my own personal ability to understand what is being implemented. And it's become such a norm. That, yeah, a lot of higher education is catching up. I mean, even with our college, one of my big and Jeff, you know, this, Jeff is not only the chief academic officer at the school, but he also has been the liaison through our accreditation process. And one of my big things that I keep talking to you, the different folks coming in the teams and such who are looking at us is just how they have really got to reconsider how important I think a library is right, particularly a physical one. Yeah, and how and I've got years now I've just been Trying to beep that horn. Because for some, some people, you don't have a legitimate college until you have a library with 60,000 books, 100,000 books. And then it doesn't even matter that no students go in there to
Jeff Sherrod
Right, or even know how to use it or check out any books. I don't anything, but it doesn't it doesn't matter.
Gregg Garner
It's just you have to have it. Yeah. And I'm just bringing this up, because there's so much that's going on in the higher education, particularly Christian education space that needs to be examined. And it needs to be examined in light of the Word of God. And then in light of what's going on in our world right now. Yeah, I think, Laurie, because you worked so much in communications, looking at media, you're you know that one of my favorite pictures is of a couple guys on a trip to Tanzania. Do you know which one I’m talking about?
Laurie Kagay
Yeah, the one with… I think it's Francis and Kanjogo? Yeah, it is one of our guys from Uganda. And guy from Kenya. One of them is reading the Bible. And the other one right next to him is reading the newspaper.
Gregg Garner
Yeah. And I just love that because I think I think it would even be better if they themselves had the Bible in one hand and the newspaper in the other. Yeah. Because it really gives us a way to think about even what the prophets had to do. The prophets were taking the Word of God. And then they were looking at the current events of their time. And they were extracting those principles from the Word of God and then appropriating them to their time, so that they could make the world no the glory of the Lord. Right, which is another way of saying, know who he is. Yeah. And it we are just really out of touch. Because even when we tried to do what I'm talking about there, it seems to be more so than by we I'm talking about higher educational institutions, it seems to be more so within the context of growing bigger as an institution and gaining more power, which is why a lot of these institutions are moving away from even Bible based accrediting associations. Yeah, and just going with regional accrediting associations. And because it gives them access to state funds, government funds, that wow, a national accrediting Association, the fact that Congress passed the fact that there should be no distinction, right, with respect to regions, states haven't gotten that Tennessee is one of them, right? And while while it's inevitable that there will be no distinction, folks are still trying to climb whatever ladder it is that they see that ultimately, in my opinion, gives them a sense of sustainability or forever. Yeah, but it's based upon things like endowments, it's based upon externalities that give an appearance of success. Yet, when you know, it's like, it's like having a nice apple, you bite into it, and there's a warmth in it. There's, it's rotten at the core. And we don't even know how to evaluate these kinds of things.
Jeff Sherrod
Yeah, I think it's just easier not to so people don't you know, it's it's, it feels like the equivalent, even the regional accreditation thing, you know, feels like the equivalent of a library with 60,000. physical books. Yeah, we're not going to use it, but at least it's there. Yeah. You know, and I think so many decisions are made that way. Yeah. With just our eyes, and…
Gregg Garner
Then it costs money. And then you pay money is passed to students. Yes. And the money is passed to the students. And the students don't know any better. Yeah, the students don't know that. They are literally financing, the building of pillars, and the building, whatever. And I bring that up, because my college that I went to, was a Christian college in California. It's pretty well known. I'm reluctant to say its name because they have lawyers and money and things. And I'll just, I'll just leave it at that. Anyways, I I was just having to work my freshman year I got I got a lot of scholarships, I was able to cover most of my education, but when you're talking about after living expenses, and such, somewhere between 28 and 30,000, in the 90s for a Christian college, it's heavy. Yeah, that's a heavy purchase price. And I was having to work several jobs. Now some of them were through the Student Work Program, work study program, which was helpful. Others were like me doing after school tutoring, and music lessons and things like that just I had in my freshman year up to six jobs, just trying to pay things off. And I still created for myself after having graduated within the four years, a significant amount of debt. But what I recognize is that while I was there, and the school was putting growth initiatives, the things that they were putting money into, just seemed rather grandiose the The Bible is pretty clear through the prophets, that God is not really concerned with hewn stones, or the kind of architecture that requires people to carve things out. And it's expensive. Yeah, it's not functional, it's completely aesthetic. And, and again, it's expensive. But the I knew that the cost of that what they were building at that institution was going to be passed to me. And the thing that really ticked me off was when the new part of campus was being built, when there was like this long roadway, of which we even could take a trolley, which was kind of cool, you know, but it was a way of having a transportation from one campus to the other campus. Because the two campuses were separated by I don't remember exactly what it was maybe half a mile walk, but trolley would get you there easy. But they put up these pillars. And these pillars were like, costly, these things were shooting, I don't know, 4050 feet in the air. And they were just lining this driveway, all the way through. And they were well lit up with like recessed lighting into the ground landscaping around them. And I just hated these pillars. They're
Jeff Sherrod
Not holding anything up. They're…
Gregg Garner
Not holding anything up.
Laurie Kagay
Just lining the drive…
Gregg Garner
Just lining there to give, you know, some architect probably said this would look awesome. It gives people a great feel. The funders are like, yeah, that looks so great. This is going to really make our institutions look good. And it's like, God is like trying to knock on somebody's heart through the Word through the prophets to say, I really hate your human stone. And, and I really like like the criticism on Bethel, for example, was so extreme by Amos, it's a COA, that he would communicate to everybody if you go to Bethel, which is translated Viet El, the house of the Lord. Yeah, if you go to Bethel, you'll sin. In other words, you go to that place that's been built even in the name of God. Right, and you're falling short of the glory of God. Yeah, this is not what God wants. And we know in the New Testament teaching, don't you know that you are the temple of the Lord? Yeah. So even accountability from Christians for how Christians spend funds, and then it needs to be invested into the education of the student, the experience of the student is like, I'm sure people are talking about it. But students need to know when they're going to these campuses. Yeah. That you're gonna pay for that. Right? When you think looks cool, it's gonna pay paying for it, and it's gonna be passed to your debt. Now, for some of them, they may get some scholarships. But for most of them, they're gonna get loans. Yeah. One of the things that I'm really proud of, and Laurie, you'll know this stat better for us is that of the hundreds of folks that have passed through our institution with respect to debt connected to their college experience, how many? How many of them came out with debt? Laurie? Not a single one. Not a single person. Pretty cool. And we're really happy about that. And have we continued that?
Laurie Kagay
Yeah, there is not a single graduate who has college debt.
Gregg Garner
This is purposeful, because for example, we just built a new building. Yeah. And if you were to go to our building, you would find zero hewn stone. Definitely not. It is it is a fantastic space for education. And in fact, it's beautiful. But it's beautiful with respect to a more complex criteria, not just as beautiful because of the ornate fixtures and the cool, trendy looking elements of design that somebody had to take an inordinate amount of time putting together Yeah, it's beautiful, because it fits biblical values. And it is going to it keeps our school affordable. Right, right. And we won't pass the debt of that on to the students outside of their capacity to get through school and not have any debt. Right. But when when students are picking colleges, I honestly don't think they're thinking about that.
Laurie Kagay
I don’t think so either.
Jeff Sherrod
I don't think so either. I mean, I think that that's the trick with it. You go to a Christian college, and it feels sometimes immoral, the amount of debt that students go into in the name of Christian schools, you know,
Gregg Garner
I graduated with we're in our 40s and so we graduated. Specifically, he graduated 23 years ago, and he still has college debt from his Christian College. aware he was a soccer star. But the soccer program didn't have enough funds to give him anything more needed. Didn't he had great grades, so he got like Dean's scholarships and things like that. But he still has debt. And just recently, because of working with a nonprofit and getting a grant where if you work with a nonprofit for a certain amount of years, they'll pay off your college debt. They finally paid it off for him. Wow. Otherwise he would be paying off that college debt into his 50s.
Jeff Sherrod
Wow. Yeah.
Gregg Garner I don't think young people know how heavy that feels right? After I got out of college, and it was it a great education. I think one program was better than the other. I was in, I was a double major, I was a triple major at first. And then I thought, Gosh, I should just go get a master's degree. But as a double major, one program was better than the other. I would say neither programs really equipped me for Christian living as an adult. Yeah. The ancillary programs like Student Life programming community life programming, attempted, but it was so out of touch with minorities like me that it was I had to assimilate and acclimate to white culture just to be able to participate. And that was a big job. That was hard. Yeah. But in the end, I got my paper, and I had enough debt, that my monthly payments would be $800. Now imagine graduating as a 21 year old, and you've got six months to get a job to start paying $800 a month?
Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. You're looking for ministry jobs done. Right. Right.
Gregg Garner
I was supposed to be looking, and I did, right. And when I did, and I got there, and I was an associate pastor, at that time, a music pastor, youth pastor, they, of course, can't pay you well, no. And so then you forbear your loans, which allows you not to pay payment, but you still accumulate interest, then it increases. And such goes a story for so many minutes, and you're trying to get married? Yeah, then you want to get married, then you think you have a mortgage, you have to pay for a car. And then people say, Well, just be wise, or maybe you have rich parents, I didn't have rich parents. And I was being as wise as I could. I was being as wise as they lead me and guide me because I didn't meet with a single person. Throughout my my four years of college and undergrad that said, Greg, let's look at your finances. Let's look at where you're going to end up at the end of this. And let's figure out some next steps. Now, I met with my guidance counselor, because I had an advisor, and which acts as a guidance counselor. But when I went into his office to look at things, he basically looked at a checklist and said, You're you're taking all the right classes. And so what I want for our students here, and the the Institute for God is definitely built off of at least its inaugural shape, a lot of my own experiences at college. And what I wanted to see in contrast to what it was that I received. And again, it's always hard for people to hear criticism on an institution, which is why I'm not even naming my Christian college. But I do think that my Christian college would be the experience of many others who went to other Christian colleges, because I think you guys also went to Christian colleges. Yeah. Would you say yours was pretty similar?
Jeff Sherrod
Pretty similar? Yeah. I mean, I had things that I think the thing that I walked away with that was really surprising to me is that, you know, I went to a Bible college actually, you know, it was a specific, narrow focus, but it was probably the most surprising thing was to see how many people were jaded. You know, as they go through the program was like, Man, these people were gonna, like, serve Jesus, and they barely want to do ministry anymore. I was like, What the program felt like it did the opposite than what it was intending, of course, not for everyone, right. But it felt like that was a lot of people.
Gregg Garner
And why do you think that would happen?
Laurie Kagay
I think some of it is that Jeff and I attended the same one. And that was, it was a shocker to me. I thought I was gonna go to Bible school, and everyone was gonna really love the Lord. But I think that, I think that a lot of the faculty and staff, I think they were out of touch. Yeah, I think we didn't have some of those, at least for me, I felt a little lost. And it wasn't a huge school. But I didn't feel like anyone specifically knew me or invested into me, you know, like, yeah, similar to you with the guidance counselor, here's a checklist, you're getting the right credits. Here's what you can put on your resume. But as for like growing in Christ, identifying, you know, what gifts I may have had, and pouring into me as a person. I couldn't find that at college.
Gregg Garner
It's so important that that happens. Yeah, right. And I think that accrediting associations, there's a lot of sweet guys on our Reading Association. And they have that concern, to see that not only on the academic side, are things up to par, but also on the student life aside where you talk about community well being in ensuring that there are opportunities for students to be known. Yeah, and they do want to see that and And I know that even before we joined the crediting Association, this was a value point for us. Yeah, this is something that we wanted to have. And I think our students can testify to the fact that they can't say what you just said. Right?
Laurie Kagay
Nor could they say what you just said, yeah, no one sat down with them about their finances. Like I know, you know, I know a girl. She's in our first semester here. And she just had that experience, you know, a mentor looking at her, her work by her bills, and how she's going to make it all work that that happened within, you know, the first month of being here.
Gregg Garner
Oh, yeah. I had a student at registration, which happened last week. During registration, the student called me up or text me first, Mr. Garner, would you be able to help me out I have a tough decision to make. And it was with respect to the fact that he's, he's, he's in his senior year. And so he's, he's on a career track. And he's got this job that he really likes, and he's put time into it. But at the same time, he felt that he needed to take a pretty heavy load so we could finish out. And it was just nice to talk with him. I call them on the phone and just said, Hey, look, let's evaluate your goals. When do you expect to finish how many classes left? And then I got to remind him that his job is in education to write and that because the way our school works, the jobs that our students get are often highly integrated into what specific focus they have on the job side of things or the career track side of things. I was able just to say, hey, remember your jobs part of your education too? Yep. And the way that we designed our school, you can be full time and take one class, this term, two classes next term, another class, the next term, two classes during the intensive and still get your full time write credits, and you don't have to pile it up. He was so relieved, he was so happy. And it it was nice to see him have that kind of covering. Yeah. Because he could walk away from it not having to second guess, because he knows he's loved and cared for. In fact, he sent me a text the next day that just said, I feel so much better. And when you're older, and you look at a college student have a problem like that. It's like nothing. Yeah. But we have to remember that for them. It's heavy, you know? Yeah. It's a lot thinking about it. Yeah, I can't sleep like this real. Yeah. But when you are when you know, and are known by your leadership, to the degree that you can help lift those burdens. And as Jesus's criticism on the Pharisees who were teachers, right, he's like, you keep all these burdens on the people. But you don't even give a finger to help them lift it. Yeah. Which the imagery is vivid. But the interpretation is to communicate that these these Bible teachers and people in leadership, it's part of their responsibility to use their authority to write into policy or to write into procedure, these creative ways of helping young people or their students to be able to carry the load of a Biblical education. Because remember that that the load that that the Pharisees were putting on people, it wasn't like everyone in general, they weren't the civil government of their time, right? The load that they were putting on people were folks who wanted to learn about God, yeah, and learn the word. And the expectations were so heavy, they just couldn't accommodate everything. And then Jesus's criticism wasn't that the load was so heavy. His criticism was you guys aren't helping them. Yeah. And I'm thankful to be part of institution to where we've got faculty, staff, administration, everybody, yeah, who's just ready to help students. And it's a blessing to see that.
Well, everyone, this is how I'm going to wrap up our first episode here in college conversations. I want to thank Professor Jeff Sherrod and Professor Laurie Kagay, for their time. Absolutely. I'm really happy to be here. And I look forward to the the next conversation we get to have concerning post secondary education, specifically Christian colleges. God bless you, everyone. See you guys. Thank you.